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A year after foundering...

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  • Previcox for horses foundering
  • Laminitis going unnoticed

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    09-11-2013, 08:57 PM
  #21
Foal
Oh man, a lot of information! I thank everyone for your advice. I asked my farrier last time he can for a trimming and he said that Joe's hooves would always grow out that way? His heels always have grown more and they definitely need to be lowered. I feel like I have inadequate in his care now. I mean, he has made big strides in the last year but maybe I've been doing the wrong thing for him by putting him in shoes this whole time? When he first foundered he had wedge platforms that were glued on but since then he has had the backwards shoe. And I definitely have some new questions to be asking. I asked my farrier last time why Joe was still sore and he said because of the amount of trauma to his feet.
Joe probably foundered because of either two things. He was overweight and he had white line. He is now on supplement grain, Nutrena Empower Balance, he gets Ulcer-Aid every day and Previcox every other day. I thought I knew a lot about laminitis, apparently I was wrong because I don't know some of the answers to your questions...Oh, I had a question, how can you tell there is still rotation based on the hoof? I'm not trying to be a smartass, that's a sincere question. Thanks everyone!
     
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    09-11-2013, 09:08 PM
  #22
Foal
Joe is a fortunate horse that he has such a caring owner, believe me I have stories But If I were in you're shoes (and Joe's) I would try to find a reputable, highly recommended Barefoot farrier and go in that direction, truly a really good barefoot farrier is a god send but some of them claim to be truly good and truly know,what they are doing, not true so ask around. He does not need shoes, truly.
     
    09-11-2013, 09:43 PM
  #23
Trained
No where near smartass, good question!
First, still more heel is growing. Left is worse than right. And from what I can see, although not the perfect angle to really see it, the new growth from the coronet down is more vertical than the rest of the hoof capsule. If you'd draw a line and lengthen it down towards the ground, following the new growth, it gives you a pretty good idea where the tip of the coffinbone is. It is, of course, only an educated guess. Only properly taken x-rays can show where it really is.

Now to management. Does he live in a stall or paddock? How does he get his hay and what kind/ how much?
Grasshay in a slowfeeder always available will keep him and his stomach busy, so no more ulcers, provided he doesn't get bute. And no, he will not overeat with it, quite the opposite. Flaxseed will help him grow nice new feet. Magnesium can help regulate his insulin response.
So, the management is not difficult once you know what's needed
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    09-11-2013, 10:00 PM
  #24
Foal
My horse was so sore without shoes. Once the major trauma was over she was a new horse with shoes. I'm not sure there is one easy answer. Each horse is different. My horses's hooves are normal looking and she had way more rotation than Joe. I would seek out a new farrier for a second opinion. Your vet or a local vet hospital should be able to recommend the best around for foundered horses. My horse had Lyme disease and foundered from the fever. I few years later I had another horse contract Lyme and foundered so badly we euthanized. If your gut is telling you something isn't right, which I'm assuming you feel since you posted here, I would seek out another opinion. I would not be happy with those feet if that was my horse. Something isn't right with blood supply and/or angles.

You are a great owner, you love him and have done a great job nursing him this far.
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    09-12-2013, 01:39 AM
  #25
Trained
Fair idea why he's still sore & rotated, with feet like that. As they're still stretched & peripherally loaded, that will at least slow down any improvements, & possibly prevent further improvement or worsen the situation.

Of course there's far more to laminitis than farriery too. Care to give us some info on his diet, nutrition, lifestyle & environment? What tests have been done on him? What is his condition? And better hoof pics - see link in my signature for what's required - would help.

Ecirhorse.com hoofrehab.com e-hoofcare.com & barefoothorse.com are some good resources to learn more. Basically, I would take the shoes off, trim frequently - every 3 weeks on av. - to keep them well balanced & protect his hooves with pads/boots where necessary. In addition to possible diet & environment changes.
     
    09-12-2013, 04:29 AM
  #26
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randa    
farrier last time he can for a trimming and he said that Joe's hooves would always grow out that way? His heels always have grown more and they definitely need to be lowered.
Without further info, don't know what your farrier means. Heels appear to need to come down drastically & keeping him 'jacked up' will indeed mean 'his hooves will always grow that way'. It will perpetuate the 'rotation'. Of course, heels can't just be chopped down in one fell swoop either, so a balancing act & generally takes a few trim cycles at least to get them where they should be. Of course, depends what else may be going on in joints etc as to what 'ideal' may be for him too.

Quote:
maybe I've been doing the wrong thing for him by putting him in shoes this whole time? When he first foundered he had wedge platforms that were glued on but since then he has had the backwards shoe.
I feel that IME shoes are definitely best avoided in this state. That further raising heels esp when horse already has serious positive rotation, that backward shoes are outdated practices that are unhelpful for anything more than short term palliative measures.

BUT there are differences of opinion & no short cuts to doing your own research to get to the bottom of what may be best answers, best approaches. And don't beat yourself up about your choices either - you can only do what you think best at the time. Just I think it's important to strive to learn better & be able to make more objective choices.

Quote:
Joe was still sore and he said because of the amount of trauma to his feet.
He may well be. Without further info, can't know what permanent damage he may or may not have. But with hoof capsules that long, heels that high, there is a fair bet that with proper mechanics, perhaps combined with changes in diet, etc, he will be able to be much more comfortable at least.

Joe probably foundered because of either two things. He was overweight and he had white line. ...how can you tell there is still rotation based on the hoof? [/QUOTE]

Look up ecirhorse.com & also safergrass.org. As 'well fed' humans are at risk of IR & type 2 diabetes, so are horses. And in horses, one symptom of this is commonly laminitis. When it's really severe/acute, it can cause catastrophic breakdown of the laminae & ensuing 'dropping' of the pedal bone, causing mechanical 'founder'. More commonly though, laminitis is not that severe, but can be chronic and go unnoticed, as can mechanical problems in the hooves, such as the farrier leaving heels too high, toes too long, for eg. The problems just gradually get worse until 'suddenly, one day, out of the blue...' the horse is suddenly lame & pronounced foundered. White line disease is a common symptom of bad mechanics, frequently goes with laminitis, but to my knowledge, is not a cause of it in any way.

Read & look over the e-hoofcare.com site for some more info on 'reading' the 'landmarks' of the hoof to better judge what's going on inside. I have drawn(roughly) on your pics to show what gives me the idea the hooves are still 'rotated'. Knowing roughly where P3 *should* be within the capsule, in relation to the hairline & seeing the heels are that high, and considering the overall length of the hoof capsules, the rear of P3 will be quite high in relation to the toe, which will be pointing into the ground. The dip in the hairline at the toe is another 'hint' and the flares - hard to tell w that angle & that the farrier has dressed the dorsal surface of the hooves - but it appears, from both front & side, that the hoof walls are flared from about 1/4 way down from the hairline.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_0673.jpg (43.7 KB, 52 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_0672.jpg (42.1 KB, 50 views)
     
    09-12-2013, 07:03 AM
  #27
Foal
Thank you everyone for taking the time to explain these things to me. Joe is in a stall, I take him to the indoor arena to get exercise daily. My vet suggested that because the dirt floor is easier on his feet. I generally take him out and walk him on the lead rope (he walks with longer strides on the lead rope) then I take him off and let him walk around and sniff and do whatever it is he wants to do. In the beginning he refused to walk out of his stall with me. It was only me that he was like that with. Anyone else could get him out, but I had to have the guy who cleans the stalls to walk behind him and tell him to walk and he would. He now comes out with me with no problem. I think I babied him a lot and he's the kind of horse to not take you seriously. He walks every time with me now though.
For his diet, he is on grass hay only, we removed all alfalfa as soon as he foundered, and he gets Nutrena Empower Balance grain. It is low carb and made for horses that are IR or grass fed only. He got Bute for the first 2 months then was switched to Previcox. He got the Previcox daily but has been taken down to every other day which he tolerates fine. He also gets a powdered Ulcer Guard in his grain every day.
I looked at the link to taking better hoof pictures, I will take some better ones today at the barn.
Here is a photo of him BEFORE foundering, I think he looks a little fat which may have contributed to his foundering.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg fatjoe.jpg (56.0 KB, 52 views)
     
    09-12-2013, 07:28 AM
  #28
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randa    
Joe is in a stall, I take him to the indoor arena to get exercise daily.
If there is turnout that he can be comfortable on, I'd try to get him out as much as possible, so he can move about more. The more exercise the better. If he's not comfortable on his feet, I don't think it's at all productive to force it though. With padded boots he should be willing & able to do more.

Quote:
For his diet, he is on grass hay only, we removed all alfalfa as soon as he foundered, and he gets Nutrena Empower Balance grain.
How much hay? Is it in a slow feeder or soaked? How much grain? I think, failing tests showing otherwise, especially how chronic the problem, I'd treat him like an IR horse & keep him on a very low NSC diet, including soaking hay if it's not tested as low. I suggest looking into supping extra Mg too. Look up Gravelproofhoof for more info

Quote:
He got Bute for the first 2 months then was switched to Previcox. He got the Previcox daily but has been taken down to every other day
You probably know that long term use of these drugs is bad for the system. It is worth looking into further IMO. Of course if the horse is in acute pain, may not be fair not to give it, but it may also be a cause of the continuing laminitis. Therefore I'd try to find ways to ensure the horse can be comfortable without it, so you can quit it asap. There are also herbal pain remedies that can be helpful.
     
    09-12-2013, 10:58 AM
  #29
Trained
Yeahhhhh, loosie found us
Here's another link with lots of info. It's the Heiro website, so of course they're promoting their product, but there's a lot of good info.
If it's not taking you straight to the IR subject, click " articles", it should come up then. To the right are several sub links about nutrition and management.
Insulin Resistance | Equine MedicalEquine Medical
     
    09-12-2013, 11:13 AM
  #30
Trained
And another link
Richard Vialls, Equine Podiatrist

It gives you amounts of supplemental magnesium and salt.
I also found another article, but don't have it saved, where it is suggested to supplement vit E to arrive at 2000 IU daily. I got the gel capsules for people, 400IU each and use 4 daily, open them up and squish the liquid out( sticky!), since the Empower Balance doesn't supply enough.
     

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