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Can someone sell my horse on a verbal loan contract?

17K views 83 replies 40 participants last post by  Sweeney Road 
#1 ·
I had a horse in training at a farm and was approached by someone who wanted to ride her a few times a week. After a few weeks of the person riding her they asked if they could loan her from me, because they could not afford to buy a horse. I had her in training so that I could in turn sell her, but after seeing how much they loved my horse I felt that it would be a nice gesture to help this person out (since I wasn't in need of the money) and let them loan her from me (they had health issues, were depressed, and guilt tripped me by saying my horse was the only thing that made them get out of their house). So the person and I had a verbal contract stating I still owned the horse, but they could loan her from, care for her as if she was theirs, and if they ever wanted to purchase her from me they could buy her papers from me.

I was approached a couple days ago by the person who is loaning my horse and they informed me that they are selling my horse (without her papers) for $10,000 and unless I pay them $10,000 they are going through with the sale.

I still own all paperwork on this mare (she is a Dutch Warmblood) and I am wondering if I have the legal right to go to the farm and pick her up?
 
#2 ·
A person can sell anything in their possession. Whether or not its legal is another issue.

Technically you should be able to go pick her up and I think you should. However you don't have proof that you didn't give the horse away so be prepared to fight. Sounds like they believe the horse is theirs.
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#3 · (Edited)
The person who's threatening to sell her has no proof of ownership, correct? You have a bill of sale and her registration paperwork? If so, go get your horse.

This person is just trying to extort money from you, which is a felony. No way is anyone going to pay $10,000 for a grade horse, anyway. Once you get your horse, file charges against them for felony extortion.

NEVER, EVER let someone have anything of yours without a written, witnessed contract! Why do people keep getting caught with their pants down when it comes to this kind of thing?
 
#5 ·
Yes, I own all of her paperwork and have an original bill of sale on her. There was never a bill of sale for the person who is leasing her from me. Is there anyway for them to say they own her if I have all her paperwork?

It was definitely my bad for not creating a written contract! I feel like this just shouldn't happen!
 
#9 ·
Yes, from my understanding the owner of the farm knows we loaned her to them. There was never a bill of sale or transfer of ownership.

Also, I don't understand why they contacted me. If they thought it was their horse why did they contact me to tell me they were going to sell her and that if I wanted her back I would have to pay..? Makes no sense to me. If they "owned" her they wouldn't have contacted me.. they would have just sold her.
 
#12 ·
That's where the extortion comes in. They probably don't have a potential buyer lined up. I would be willing to bet that if you called their bluff on it ("Ok, go ahead and sell her cuz I don't have the money"), they'd fold or come up with all sorts of excuses/lies.
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#14 · (Edited)
They're just trying to extort money from you for your own horse. Do you have any witnesses to the phone call? This piece of scum needs to go to jail. In the meantime, go get your horse. NOW.

Registration papers do NOT denote ownership, which is why you need proof in the form of a bill of sale. A lot of horses' registration papers are never transferred from previous owner names. Doesn't mean the horses still belong to them. Those papers will just be helpful in this situation as back up to your bill of sale.
 
#23 ·
I'm betting this piece of garbage will turn tail and run when you show up. She most likely won't say jack to the police OR you, but you can bet I'd still be pressing charges! There are consequences for stealing and extortion, and this scum needs to know what it feels like to wear steel bracelets and have her picture taken by the police photographer.
 
#30 ·
Hope all goes well. People can be crazy sometimes.

I did have a question that maybe you could clarify: So you have your horse in training at this barn. How did this person come in contact with the horse? Do they take lessons there? Or are they some random people that hung around the barn?
 
#33 ·
No, that's a good question. The person who was leasing her is related to another person who owned a horse on the property (I don't want to be to specific since I haven't picked her up yet). They didn't like their relatives horse... They only "bonded" with mine...
 
#32 ·
I recently had a mare taken from a pasture by the people that originally bought her at auction then turned her loose and chased her into my pasture.
I only needed to show coggins and vet bills to prove ownership to the deputy. That and a couple of witnesses verifying that the mare had been in my care for over a year. The thief even had the original bill of sale from the auction.
Go get that mare and then file a complaint with the local law enforcement officer. Shalom
 
#34 ·
Heh, and that's my point. Once it becomes a "Civil Matter' they won't want to touch it. They won't DO anything at that point, they will generally leave, write a report and tell you to file a lawsuit. In the meantime, your horse could go anywhere.

I am glad they are helping you. I'm crossing my fingers that the people who have her are so dazed by the Sheriff's presence that they let her go without a fuss.
 
#37 ·
Wait a minute, conversations don't hold much water in court. Take your ownership and tell the police these people these people stole your horse. In Canada, theft over $5000 makes it a criminal offence. It might there too. Just deny having any conversation with them regarding you loaning them the horse. What they are trying to do is extort money out of you and that is a serious offence.Extortion isn't the correct word as there has been no threat of violence. The word eludes me at the moment but it is a serious charge.
 
#38 · (Edited)
You're thinking of fraud, which really is the better legal definition than extortion or blackmail.

Fraud:
A false representation of a matter of fact—whether by words or by conduct, by false or misleading allegations, or by concealment of what should have been disclosed—that deceives and is intended to deceive another so that the individual will act upon it to her or his legal injury.

Fraud is commonly understood as dishonesty calculated for advantage. In the U.S. legal system, fraud is a specific offense with certain features.

Fraud is most common in the buying or selling of property including real estate and personal property, as well intangible property such as stocks, bonds, and copyrights. State and federal statutes criminalize fraud, but not all cases rise to the level of criminality. Prosecutors have discretion in determining which cases to pursue. Victims may also seek redress in civil court.

Fraud must be proved by showing that the defendant's actions involved five separate elements: (1) a false statement of a material fact, (2) knowledge on the part of the defendant that the statement is untrue, (3) intent on the part of the defendant to deceive the alleged victim, (4) justifiable reliance by the alleged victim on the statement, and (5) injury to the alleged victim as a result.
 
#44 ·
Oh my friend, I didn't quote you to single you out...sorry. Just a general observation from reading threads in the legal area of the forum. Just wanted to clarify things in hope someone else reading here won't get caught in a bad situation. Which is why it is absolutely 100% necessary to get EVERYTHING in writing, even deals between friends and family :)
 
#47 ·
Wait, what?
The horse is (was?) in training with Trainer.
Person A talked you into leasing the horse to them.
Where was the Trainer in all this? Or was the horse done with Trainer and just hanging out at the barn?
Are the bills in A's name? That's the only way they would be able to "prove" ownership.
How long was the horse with Trainer? How long has A been riding the horse? Where is the barn owner in all this, or is the horse at A's property?
This whole situation is not making any sense to me. I would not spend hours (ha that autocorrected to "horse") on a forum asking if I still legally owned the horse...
Anyways, call me a skeptic. Good luck to you, OP.
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#63 ·
Wait, what?
The horse is (was?) in training with Trainer.
Person A talked you into leasing the horse to them.
Where was the Trainer in all this? Or was the horse done with Trainer and just hanging out at the barn?
Are the bills in A's name? That's the only way they would be able to "prove" ownership.
How long was the horse with Trainer? How long has A been riding the horse? Where is the barn owner in all this, or is the horse at A's property?
This whole situation is not making any sense to me. I would not spend hours (ha that autocorrected to "horse") on a forum asking if I still legally owned the horse...
Anyways, call me a skeptic. Good luck to you, OP.
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I had/have all those same questions.
It's a good thing the horse is back where she should be but I would think this could have been easier by just calling whoever ran the barn & telling them that A was no longer allowed to have any contact with the horse.
As a BO I know who owns who & would abide by the owner's wishes.
 
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