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Horse Buyer Claiming False Advertisement

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        05-01-2014, 07:10 PM
      #21
    Foal
    "Sold as-is" is not always absolute if the horse has been misrepresented. A general overview here: SADDLED WITH A LAME HORSE? WHY STATE CONSUMER PROTECTION LAWS CAN BE THE BEST PROTECTION FOR DUPED HORSE PURCHASERS

    Having said that, it is unlikely that a buyer would be awarded damages if a horse described as "under 15 hands" was, in fact, 14.2 (but juries being what they are, who knows?)
         
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        07-18-2014, 05:26 PM
      #22
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by churumbeque    
    I would hire a professional to measure the horse at its new location and if it is indeed 14.2 she should pay to get her horse back. 14.2 is a pony , you should be with in an inch of measuring a horse. Size can be very important in some instances.
    Then there are LOT of Arabian, and other horses that are "ponies". A horse is a horse is a horse. A Dales that happens to be 14.3 might not be within breed standards, but it's still a pony. A horse that doesn't get taller than 14.2 is still a horse. It's not uncommon for a breed of horse, Arabians, QH, March Tacky and others to have horses that by your definition is a pony, but are still registered "horses". Not meeting a breed standard doesn't make a horse a pony or a pony a horse.
         
        07-18-2014, 05:35 PM
      #23
    Green Broke
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by its lbs not miles    
    Then there are LOT of Arabian, and other horses that are "ponies". A horse is a horse is a horse. A Dales that happens to be 14.3 might not be within breed standards, but it's still a pony. A horse that doesn't get taller than 14.2 is still a horse. It's not uncommon for a breed of horse, Arabians, QH, March Tacky and others to have horses that by your definition is a pony, but are still registered "horses". Not meeting a breed standard doesn't make a horse a pony or a pony a horse.
    they may call a miniature horse a hors, but it is still a pony.if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, it is a duck.
    Posted via Mobile Device
         
        07-18-2014, 05:43 PM
      #24
    Foal
    I don't know anything about the legalities but on the topic of heights, while they are usually over estimated I had the opposite happen!

    When I got my now passed Ottb gelding he was advertised as 15hh. Got there to see this -behemoth-. After I got him home I sticked him and he measured 17.2. Luckily I like big horses but I'd hate to see what they thought a 17hh horse looked like if that was their idea of 15 hands.
    Posted via Mobile Device
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        07-18-2014, 06:30 PM
      #25
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by churumbeque    
    they may call a miniature horse a hors, but it is still a pony.if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, it is a duck.
    Posted via Mobile Device
    A 14.1 hand horse is not a miniature (that's a different breed of animal).
    A 14.3 hand pony is not a horse.
    A 14.1 Arabian, Marsh Tacky, etc.... is a horse not a pony.

    If mommy and daddy are horses, then Jr is a horse even he only reaches 14 hands.
    If mommy and daddy ponies, ten Jr is a pony even if he grows to be 14.3 hands.

    Breed, not height, is what makes a horse or a pony.
         
        07-18-2014, 06:39 PM
      #26
    Trained
    I'm a fairly small guy. Am I 5'7" or 5'8"? Depends on the day, the doctor's office, etc. How tall is Mia? I've had vets say 15.2 & 15.3. I'm sure she is under 16 hands, but I wouldn't die of shock if someone measured her at 15.1.

    How does one know?
    "The FEI's definition of a pony still is, "a small horse whose height at the withers, having been measured on a smooth level surface, does not exceed 148 cm without shoes or 149 cm with shoes."

    10. The pony must be positioned for measurement with the front legs parallel and perpendicular; the toes of the front feet should be in line. Both hindfeet must be taking weight and as near perpendicular as possible; the toes of the hind feet should be not more than 15 cm out of line with each other.

    11. The pony’s head must be in its natural upright position.

    12. The measurement must be taken at the highest point of the withers (i.e. Immediately above the spinous process of the 5th thoracic vertebra) which should be identified by palpation if necessary and marked before any measurements are made. The FEI measuring ve terinarians may refuse to measure a pony whose withers show signs of having been interfered w ith.

    13. The veterinarian carrying out the measurement has the responsibility that the stick he uses is an accurate one. The stick must be fitted with a spirit level and must be shod with metal. A laser device can also be used.

    14. Each pony will be measured in succession by two FEI Measuring veterinarians. Should the two measurements differ, the lower of the two heights will be taken as definitive and no further measurement will take place at the competition."
    FEI Pony Measurement Rules Fine-tuned and Regulated | eurodressage

    148 cm equals 58.26772 inches, without shoes, or 14.2 1/4 hands.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SouthernTrails    
    Tell my 14-2 hand qh which is a cutting horse or my 14-1 Appy they are a pony and they will kick or bite you .
    I've got a 13.0 hands mustang gelding. My wife claims that if you need to clean his sheath, you need only to tell him he's a pony & not a horse. He'll do his best then to prove otherwise... ...Frankly, I"m willing to call him a horse.

    As for the law, it depends on the state. If the buyer has a written promise the horse was at least 15.0 hands, then he might be entitled to something. Small claims cases can depend more on what the judge had for lunch than the law, but I doubt the buyer would get anything in most courts. I'm not a lawyer, and I doubt the horse cost enough to justify anyone hiring a lawyer.

    We're in the process of selling 2 acres of land. The disclosure form I filled out was to the best of my knowledge, and I was extremely accurate - to the best of my knowledge. Being anal, I looked up things like road ownership, military low level routes and learned things I didn't know the entire time I owned the land. But our contract also calls for the BUYER to exercise due diligence, and not to rely on any of my statements as total, verifiable truth.

    If you really want to know the legal 'truth', the best bet is to contact a county bar association referral service. You can usually get a reference that includes some time talking to a licensed attorney for $25-50. Internet advice is well meaning, but often wrong. But if I were the seller in this case, I'd probably say something rude to the buyer. If the buyer agreed to pay all costs in returning the horse, I probably would take the horse back on the theory that no horse I've owned should end up in the hands of a jerk like that.
         
        07-18-2014, 06:40 PM
      #27
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by churumbeque    
    .if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, it is a duck.
    Posted via Mobile Device
    But if the "duck" is too much bigger than all the rest I guess you'd say it was a goose? Regardless of the fact that it's parents were both ducks?

    If it's too small what would that make it? A chicken?

    Breeding two horses will ALWAYS produce a horse (no matter how short or tall)
    Breeding two ponies will ALWAYS produce a pony (no matter how tall).

    As soon as the law of nature changes so I can breed two of the same animal and get a completely different breed then we'll throw out EVERYTHING we know about genetics.
         
        07-18-2014, 07:24 PM
      #28
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bsms    

    "The FEI's definition of a pony still is, "a small horse whose height at the withers, having been measured on a smooth level surface, does not exceed 148 cm without shoes or 149 cm with shoes."

    10. The pony must be positioned for measurement with the front legs parallel and perpendicular; the toes of the front feet should be in line. Both hindfeet must be taking weight and as near perpendicular as possible; the toes of the hind feet should be not more than 15 cm out of line with each other.

    11. The pony’s head must be in its natural upright position.

    12. The measurement must be taken at the highest point of the withers (i.e. Immediately above the spinous process of the 5th thoracic vertebra) which should be identified by palpation if necessary and marked before any measurements are made. The FEI measuring ve terinarians may refuse to measure a pony whose withers show signs of having been interfered w ith.

    13. The veterinarian carrying out the measurement has the responsibility that the stick he uses is an accurate one. The stick must be fitted with a spirit level and must be shod with metal. A laser device can also be used.

    14. Each pony will be measured in succession by two FEI Measuring veterinarians. Should the two measurements differ, the lower of the two heights will be taken as definitive and no further measurement will take place at the competition."
    FEI Pony Measurement Rules Fine-tuned and Regulated | eurodressage

    148 cm equals 58.26772 inches, without shoes, or 14.2 1/4 hands.

    And yet an 14.1 hand Arabian "horse" is still a "horse" that is still within the breed standard for height. OOOOPS...I guess we better let them know that according to the FEI they can't be horses and must compete as "ponies" ?
    Of course that's great news for folks who have a Dales that's 14.3. They can now show as horses.

    I just love how the FEI ignores breed and just decides that it's all based on height . I guess the breeders and geneticist can close up shop. They've been wasting their time.
    So now the FEI will have to have an Arabian, etc... "pony" class

    Ok, I've had enough fun with this. Not being fan of the FEI (it's a competition thing ).
    That FEI determination came out several years ago and they only measure the ponies for their competitions vs accepting certifications which is what they had done before (apparently people where certify small horses as ponies so now if you use a horse it has to be 148cm or less and if your Dales is 150cm, well, too bad. It's still not a horse, but you can't compete as a pony). But they accept a 14.1 Arabian is a horse. Horses don't get measured by the FEI to prove that they're horses (even if they're under 14.2) since being a tad shorter doesn't give you an edge in the horse categories with the taller horses, like being a tad taller does with the shorter ponies.

    Also should be remembered that what the FEI is doing is only related to their competitions and not what a breed of equine actually is considered to be. They basically will allow a "horse" to compete in the pony class so long as it falls within below an accepted height. That does not make the horse a pony.
         
        07-18-2014, 07:59 PM
      #29
    Trained
    Wiki has a pretty good discussion of the various meanings of the word pony:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pony

    Like just about everything in both the horse world and the world of law, the correct answer is:

    "It depends...."


    Dustbunny and Chasin Ponies like this.
         
        07-18-2014, 09:05 PM
      #30
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bsms    
    Wiki has a pretty good discussion of the various meanings of the word pony:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pony

    Like just about everything in both the horse world and the world of law, the correct answer is:

    "It depends...."

    In the case of organizations that govern competing, etc. it do depend on the organization (e.g. If one of my boys joined the United States Pony Club - the oldest still as 7 months before he's too old - and is using one of my mares she would be considered a "pony"...all 16+ hand of her )

    In the case of "breeds" it's governed by what the breed is. E.g. Icelandic Horse and Marsh Tacky routinely produce animals that are not over 14.2 and it's not uncommon to find Arabians, QH and others that sometimes fall short, but they are all still technically (and officially) horses. Even if they're allowed to compete as ponies with the FEI. There are breeds of ponies like the feral ponies (I couldn't spell the name even I remembered how to pronounce it) that live on a Virginia island, which are managed and sold, and the offspring of those returned to domestication can exceed 14.2 at times (but they're still "ponies"). Outside of groups who try to manage competitions, where size can make a difference it's the breed of the parents that determines if it's a pony or horse (I guess you could use height to make the determination of a horse/pony cross). Of course we're being extremely arrogant using just one set of standards since even countries can have different definitions. In Australia it's a horse at 14 hands (smaller is a pony) and a horse between 14-15 hands is called a "golloway".
         

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