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Law allowing horse slaughter in Oklahoma

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    04-03-2013, 11:12 PM
  #101
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allegro    
http://www.kaufmanzoning.net/mayorpaulabaconletter.pdf This should answer your question about how horse slaughter is bad for the economy. Browse through these pages, and that should help clear your mind.

I have a question... How does a pro-slaughter individual "rescue" horses from a kill buyer when, in their eyes, horse slaughter is humane? That's pretty contradictory if you ask me. In their eyes, isn't it good that these horses are going to slaughter? Why would you try and prevent that?

No preventing about it, it is simple economics.
You create demand with higher prices.

Those horses aren't diamonds in the rough, they are just slaughter-bound horses who have been given care and attention, and it shows. A majority of their rescues from slaughter were young horses at the time of their rescue (under the age of 10). All of their horses at the rescue are sound at least for light riding. Many of them are fit for medium to heavy work. All of their horses are either trained, or capable of being ridden (some are too young and haven't begun training yet). According to a USDA study, 92% of horses sent to slaughter are in good condition. These aren't sick, lame, OR skinny horses. The "bleeding-heart" rescues don't have to be the only ones getting horses bound for slaughter. If people just realized the potential money from training previously slaughter-bound horses (yes, I have done the research and have spoken with multiple owners of previously slaughter-bound horses), then we wouldn't have the issue. The truth is, the old, sick, and injured horses don't go to slaughter. In fact, horses who are unable to bear weight on all four legs, or who are blind in both eyes aren't even allowed to go to slaughter.

Yes, injured horses go to the kill pen and where else would you suggest they go???
YES, we see the potential in auction horses!!!
Again, only if the horse market makes it worth while to buy, feed, train and resell! But with horses prices low, the demand for horses is low and the cost of feed high it is not cost effective.
Again, see my response to the above paragragh.

I have a life and I am tired of arguing with closed-minded individuals who obviously have financial gain from slaughter. You are unable to see truth that is shoved in your face. Meanwhile, I will continue my research, and try my best to refute the propaganda and lies put forth by pro-slaughter individuals who care for nothing except the money they can put in their pockets. Just run to Slaughterhouse Sue for your information.
I am not even sure how to respond to this, but I will say that the pro-slaughter people that have responded in this thread have real-life experience with horse auctions, the horse industry and horse slaughter for human consumption(over seas) and yet all I see from you are links to the internet and one experience working at a horse rescue. No one here linked any info from "Slaughterhouse Sue", again that tells me that all your information comes from a Google search rather than seeing it first hand and having your livelyhood depend on the livestock industry.

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    04-04-2013, 11:22 PM
  #102
Super Moderator
Everything you say, Allegro, only proves how little you know about horses and the horse industry as a whole. If you spent your time talking to people in the industry that have spent their entire lifetimes loving horses and working in the horse industry full-time, you would get the REAL story. All you have done is spend your time on the internet and then repeat -- like a Myna bird - every anti-slaughter argument put forth by the very radicals that want to end all livestock and pet breeding, ownership and use.

You ask how I can be pro-slaughter. It is very easy. I ask "how you cannot be pro-slaughter if you really love horses?" Everything you do insures that they will still be slaughtered only will have to endure a 1500 mile trip on top of it and be slaughtered where there are no standards for humane treatment.

Do you really think that all of us here have given our entire lives to better horse training and care because we hate horses? Do you really think the members of the AVMA and the AAEP that are pro-slaughter went to college for years and have worked tirelessly day and night for years because they hate horses? Do you really think that all of the 'Country Vets' that are 'pro-slaughter' hate horses? I have not met a single Vet with a mixed practice out in the country that is not 'strongly pro-slaughter'. Do you really think they spent 7 or 8 years in college, owe huge debts when they graduated, work for a fraction of what other Vets make, work all hours of the day and night trying to save a horse or a cow or a farm-dog hit by a car because they hate animals -- horses in particular?

Why do I specify 'country Vets'? Because, unlike 'city Vets' that have small animal practices and huge equine Vet Centers that have elite show and race horse practices, 'country Vets' with mixed practices have a poorer clientele that includes ranchers, small town and rural clients; Their practice includes thousands of recreation animal owners with pets and recreational horses. These people own a lot of horses that are worth less money than the high-end 'elite' show horses and the owners have a lot less money than the owners that take their horses to the high priced equine centers. These are the horses that have suffered the most from the decline in value that came with closing the American Slaughter houses. They include a lot of week-end ropers, penners, trail riders, 4-H and FFA participants, gymkhana, open show and playday participants, back-yard trainers with day jobs (some are pretty good trainers but do not train for a living), and other clients of more modest means.

Every one of the 'country Vets' I know (and I know many with more than 50 years in the horse industry) ALL are strongly pro-slaughter. Not one of them (or I) like slaughter and most of them (and I) would not send any of our own horses to slaughter, but the lack of a slaughter option and the corresponding drop in low-end horse values that came with the closing of the 'close' slaughter plants, has been a disaster for the health, care and well-being of all of these lower end horses.

IF YOU ACTUALLY TOOK THE TIME AND TROUBLE to go talk to some of these country Vets, you would be told how the care and quality of life of these lower end horses dropped when they lost their value. Vets often do not even get called out any more for injured or sick horses. [We see this all of the time right here on these very forums.] Many low-income horse owners will not put a $300.00 Vet bill in a $100.00 horse that they can replace for $200.00 or $300.00. Thousands of horses just have to 'live or die' on their own because they are no longer worth the Vet bill. The Vet in Stratford, OK, a very good friend, had his horse income drop by more than 75% when the horse values took their nose-dive. I have talked to many country Vets about it and they all have said the horse portion of their practice dropped by as much as 90% with the value drop. This 'unintended consequence' is very real. Just go around and talk to them. The horse business dropped so drastically at the Ada Vet Clinic (where my old Vet retired from) that he retired and their other large animal Vets went to 'farm animals' only and they did not replace him. The clinic quit doing horses completely. When slaughter prices were high (around $1000.00 for a fat horse) all of these lower end horses were well-fed and cared for because they had value. If a lameness did not get better, the horse was well-fed and cared for until it got better or it was decided that it needed to be sold. The 'salvage value' of horses, just like the salvage value of non-productive cattle, helps keep livestock owners in the business and helps provide feed and care for the others.

It is not about our 'greed' or people wanting to raise more horses because slaughter is available. It is about quality and value and marketability of our good horses. [These opinions alone tell me you have never been in or even 'close' to the industry.] I have never met the breeder or horse owner that wanted any horse they bred or raised to go to slaughter. Horses could not be raised for slaughter price when prices were high. It costs anywhere from 3 to 10 times the slaughter price to raise a horse to 'slaughter weight'. Horse are raised with great hopes and expectations or with total and complete ignorance. Those owners that are that ignorant, will always breed and raise them and not care for their fugly mutt just because they are that ignorant. You can't fix stupid and you are never going to stop them from breeding their Arabiloosafino to a Gypsy because the spots and feathers are so 'cool'. [How many people would breed their fugly grade mare to a Friesian stallion or a Gypsy if they did not have those cool feathers? These are real knowledgeable serious breeders -- well -- maybe not. And you know what? They are going to keep right on breeding those useless fugly suckers.

YOU and people like you have done more to cause lower end horses more pain and suffering than any abusive owners. YOU and people like you are directly responsible for horses having to be hauled thousands of miles to a very questionable end. YOU and people like you have the blood and misery of all of the horses now being hauled to Mexico and Canada instead of having well-managed and well-regulated processing available in many places here in the US where it belongs.

You use Kauffman, TX as a reason to not have slaughter. Have you seen one single person here defend that horrible place? I have not seen it. It was poorly run, poorly managed and had no oversight and no rules. The answer is NOT to eliminate processing in the US. The answer is to set it up right and insure that rules are established and followed -- like 'Slaughterhouse Sue' wants to do. You should be helping her instead of repeating the lies of the Animal rights nuts that want to stop all pet and animal ownership and use.

Finally, stopping slaughter completely is unobtainable. To try to stop it is only going to play into the hands of the animal rights nuts that will have to stop all breeding and ownership in order to stop slaughter. That is exactly what you are helping them do -- whether you are smart enough to know it or not. You cannot stop water from running downhill! That is exactly what stopping slaughter is like.

Just 'replace' slaughter houses in your argument with salvage yards. Let's say you decide salvage yards are ugly and need to be done away with. Never mind, there are still going to be vehicles that get old, get wrecked or quit running that now have no place to be sold (or even given away). They aren't going to quit 'dying'. They are just not going to have any place to be taken and stripped of usable parts or reprocessed for the steel in them. Soon, there will be junk cars in everyone's backyard. Then, the people that need a place to get rid of them will just pull the tags off and abandon them on some back street or field out of sight. They will just have to 'rust down' to get completely rid of them. Gee -- it looks a whole lot like what you and those like you have done to the horse industry, doesn't it?
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    04-05-2013, 02:11 AM
  #103
Foal
I'll never understand why people think that the solution to ignorant/abusive owners and breeding horses that shouldn't be bred, is to remove the outlet for these horses to have a quick end with minimal suffering (compared to what they experience now!). You don't cap a leak without stopping the flow first
     
    04-05-2013, 05:51 PM
  #104
Foal
=Joe4d;2106729]I think I wanna move to OK, can't you drop off your brats at a hospital up to about age 17 ?[/QUOTE]
I Need To Look Into This... I Have A 13 Year Old Son That Might Want A Hospital Tour. Lol
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    04-05-2013, 06:46 PM
  #105
Green Broke
"YOU and people like you have done more to cause lower end horses more pain and suffering than any abusive owners. YOU and people like you are directly responsible for horses having to be hauled thousands of miles to a very questionable end. YOU and people like you have the blood and misery of all of the horses now being hauled to Mexico and Canada instead of having well-managed and well-regulated processing available in many places here in the US where it belongs."


I'm one of those "YOU PEOPLE" you want to blame for all neglect, misery & torture of horses. I'm anti-slaughter but I don't try to stop you from dumping your garbage where ever or however you want.
Even if there were slaughter houses every 5 miles all across the USA production line killing of horses would still not be humane due to their very nature.
All the regulations in the World can not stop the individual horse from having it's last moments from being terrifying. You do what you want with your horses but how dare you say that I am responsible for yours or any one else's actions. I work my ass off to keep my horses happy & healthy right to the end of their lives & I'll be there when their end comes.

Starvation, neglect, loading a crippled horse onto a kill truck or whatever awful means people use dispose of their horse because it no longer suits their needs & could make a few bucks has never & will never be an option for me.

I take care of my own & won't be made to feel guilty for not cleaning up other's messes. I have no blood on my hands & I fully resent you saying there is.

Having a debate & discussion is one thing but you've crossed the line placing blame where there is none. Belittling people who have compassion is just mean. It takes a lot to piss me off but your above statements managed to do that.

Allegro, don't let anyone give you a cold heart.

Natisha~ signing off this forum.
Taffy Clayton likes this.
     
    04-05-2013, 07:14 PM
  #106
Showing
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allegro    
http://www.kaufmanzoning.net/mayorpaulabaconletter.pdf This should answer your question about how horse slaughter is bad for the economy. Browse through these pages, and that should help clear your mind.

Okay, so that was one town's experience with one slaughterhouse from before, when there wasn't enough funding for adequate facilities and monitoring.

I have an idea... my local McDonald's is utterly horrible. They are fairly well known for causing food poisoning, their restaurant is filthy, the staff is underpaid and constantly understaffed, and the management treats the staff like crap. That must justify the idea that all McD's everywhere should be closed down, right?

I have a question... How does a pro-slaughter individual "rescue" horses from a kill buyer when, in their eyes, horse slaughter is humane? That's pretty contradictory if you ask me. In their eyes, isn't it good that these horses are going to slaughter? Why would you try and prevent that?

I don't quite understand your reasoning here. It has nothing to do with whether we believe the slaughter process is humane or not. Rescuing a horse from a kill buyer means that the horse is no longer on the road to death, it's as simple as that.

Those horses aren't diamonds in the rough, they are just slaughter-bound horses who have been given care and attention, and it shows. A majority of their rescues from slaughter were young horses at the time of their rescue (under the age of 10). All of their horses at the rescue are sound at least for light riding. Many of them are fit for medium to heavy work. All of their horses are either trained, or capable of being ridden (some are too young and haven't begun training yet). According to a USDA study, 92% of horses sent to slaughter are in good condition. These aren't sick, lame, OR skinny horses.

I guess you go to different auctions than I do. While there are some nice horses that get bought up by the meat man when there is no other bid, there is a much larger portion bought by the killer that has clearly never been handled, they are obviously lame/sick, or they have apparent behavioral issues.

The "bleeding-heart" rescues don't have to be the only ones getting horses bound for slaughter. If people just realized the potential money from training previously slaughter-bound horses (yes, I have done the research and have spoken with multiple owners of previously slaughter-bound horses), then we wouldn't have the issue. The truth is, the old, sick, and injured horses don't go to slaughter. In fact, horses who are unable to bear weight on all four legs, or who are blind in both eyes aren't even allowed to go to slaughter.

With the horse market like it is, there is absolutely zero money in trying to re-train and sell horses. Not only are the feed prices astronomical (I'm currently paying over $200 a ton for grass hay and I can't find any alfalfa for under $350 a ton...that's a lot when you're feeding nearly 20 head), but there is no market for them after they are trained. Look around CL pretty much anywhere in the country right now. Horses that are green broke are a dime a dozen...and those are the ones that are well bred with papers. Grade horses that are green broke are being given away for free so I ask you; after spending 30-60+ days feeding and training this horse at a personal cost of $700-$1500+ dollars, where is the profit when I can't find a buyer for him priced at $200?

During the peak of the drought down here last summer, I had people calling me almost daily asking if I wanted a free horse or 10 or if I knew anyone looking to buy a good horse for cheap. Some of these people basically begged me to take their horses because they couldn't feed them and there were no buyers. It's still this way, though folks don't call as often now because their horses either got shipped to auction or died in the field.

I have a life and I am tired of arguing with closed-minded individuals who obviously have financial gain from slaughter. You are unable to see truth that is shoved in your face. Meanwhile, I will continue my research, and try my best to refute the propaganda and lies put forth by pro-slaughter individuals who care for nothing except the money they can put in their pockets. Just run to Slaughterhouse Sue for your information.
LOL, wow , hypocrisy much? I'm not sure where you gleaned the idea that any of us are gaining profit from horse slaughter. The horses I have, the horses I raise and keep end up laid to rest in my pasture when their time is done, worthy of a member of the family...which they are. I don't raise horses for slaughter, I don't train horses for slaughter, I actually do my ****edest to keep any horses from my place from going to the killers by giving them proper training and keeping them valuable.

You say it's propaganda, but how can that be true when I'm living it. I don't get my info from random places on the internet, I actually see it in real life every...single...day.

Anyway, Pot, I think this kettle is going to try to stay away from this thread now.

But no promises .
     
    04-05-2013, 11:01 PM
  #107
Super Moderator
I never said anyone 'intended' to cause misery and suffering. That is why the results of stopping regulated processing in the US are called 'the unitended consequences' of stopping US processing.

When the HSUS and the animal rights nuts were just 'trying' to stop US processing about 10 years ago, the AVMA and the AAEP warned of the unintended consequences. They warned that there would always be unwanted horses and they were always going to have to be processed to get rid of the 100,000+ number of them that are unwanted by anyone else every single year. Mind you, this was well before the economy went South and this was when prospects were selling for $2500.00 and up and every ridable and usable horse was marketable.

They warned that what would happen would be a great loss of value of lower end horses and that horses would have to endure 1500 mile plus trips and that lower end horse care would and lower end horses would suffer because of it. And they were absolutely right.

So, yes, admit it or not -- horses are cared for much less and those that no one else wants DO have to endure a 1500 mile trip that they should not have to endure. They are processed in lower quality plants that have little over-sight or rules.

I cannot imagine that anyone the loves and cares for horses would rather see what is happening than to help make plants available in the U.S.

And YES! Horses can be processed humanely. They have been doing it for centuries in Iceland. The local plant in East Denver that I regularly bought (I guess I should call it 'rescued) horses from as a teen processed horses one day a week. Horses just walked right into the box and stood there when they were shot or ?? They did back then. (It sounded like a gun.) I never went in the room, but the horses just stood there waiting for their turn to go in. I bought probably 25 or 30 horses from them. About half had to go back because they were not sound or healthy. I and several other people, regularly bought horses form them. They charged what they paid for them plus $10.00 way back then. Most cost me $65.00 to $80.00. They were bringing $.70 a pound back then. I bought them to train and resell. So, do not tell me that they cannot be processed humanely. What I saw was a lot more humane than any 1500 mile trip to Mexico where there are no rules or standards.
     
    04-05-2013, 11:31 PM
  #108
Yearling
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allegro    
I have a question... How does a pro-slaughter individual "rescue" horses from a kill buyer when, in their eyes, horse slaughter is humane? That's pretty contradictory if you ask me. In their eyes, isn't it good that these horses are going to slaughter? Why would you try and prevent that?

Those horses aren't diamonds in the rough, they are just slaughter-bound horses who have been given care and attention, and it shows. A majority of their rescues from slaughter were young horses at the time of their rescue (under the age of 10). All of their horses at the rescue are sound at least for light riding. Many of them are fit for medium to heavy work. All of their horses are either trained, or capable of being ridden (some are too young and haven't begun training yet). According to a USDA study, 92% of horses sent to slaughter are in good condition. These aren't sick, lame, OR skinny horses. The "bleeding-heart" rescues don't have to be the only ones getting horses bound for slaughter. If people just realized the potential money from training previously slaughter-bound horses (yes, I have done the research and have spoken with multiple owners of previously slaughter-bound horses), then we wouldn't have the issue. The truth is, the old, sick, and injured horses don't go to slaughter. In fact, horses who are unable to bear weight on all four legs, or who are blind in both eyes aren't even allowed to go to slaughter.
I told myself I wasn't going to get involved with this thread, but THIS irked me.

Just because we're pro slaughter does NOT mean that we can't rescue slaughter bound horses. There has to be an outlet for all of these "unwanted" horses. Otherwise, where would we put them all? There simply isn't enough interest in the horse economy for every horse to be rescued. Do YOU want to look after them all? A horse is a potential thirty year commitment, and with the amount of horses there are in the world, people can't afford to look after THAT many horses.

Quote:
According to a USDA study, 92% of horses sent to slaughter are in good condition. These aren't sick, lame, OR skinny horses.
Well, sorry to tell you, but the USDA is misinformed. How often do you hang around the slaughter houses? ANY horse goes. Just because you look at a young horse and it appears to be healthy, doesn't mean that there aren't fatal underlying issues. I can't tell you how many horses being rescued from Greely, Olex and Camelot have been reported to have health issues, a few have died or been euthed.

Here in Ontario the price of hay is very expensive and people can no longer afford to keep their horses, and no one can afford to buy, therefore no horses are being sold. What would you have done with all of the horses that people can't sell. For a lot of these people slaughter is becoming the only option, that doesn't make them bad people.

We're simply at a point in time where it is becoming very difficult to own horses. If you want to find a fix to these problem, then I say have at, but I'm telling you right now, eliminating the slaughter houses will make it one hundred times worse.
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    04-05-2013, 11:49 PM
  #109
Yearling
There isn't enough homes for all the unwanted horses out there. Its way more merciful to kill the horse quickly then letting it starve. That would be a slow and extremely painful death. All of us who are pro slaughter are because we see the whole problem. Not just bits of it. Its called tough love. We gotta do what we gotta do. Its not pretty, but its whats necessary.
     
    04-06-2013, 12:03 AM
  #110
Yearling
This is one of the mare's I rescued from slaughter two years ago. Just a comparison of how she looked a couple months after she arrived at the farm and what she looks now. How dare I, a slaughter advocate, rescue a horse from slaughter? How contradictory of me. Just to prove to you that pro slaughter people aren't as heartless and contradictory as you think.
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