Law allowing horse slaughter in Oklahoma - Page 2 - The Horse Forum
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post #11 of 113 Old 03-12-2013, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by charlietuna View Post
5. Who will benefit from the meat? Only European companies will make a tidy profit from the meat and spend next to nothing in Oklahoma except lawyer fees.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm fairly certain that foreign-owned businesses operating in the U.S. still pay U.S. taxes?
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post #12 of 113 Old 03-12-2013, 01:30 PM
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Before I get into this... OP, are you actually involved in the horse industry to any extent beyond going "killing horses for slaughter is evil!"?

I really get a strong sense that you are not actually in the industry.

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post #13 of 113 Old 03-12-2013, 01:35 PM
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@Cherie - You said it all very well. I can't say anything better, so I'll just agree with you 100%.

A quick observation about OK Auctions, i.e. Bristow & Triangle Sales which are my experiences here vs Limonite Auction in CA.

When I lived in CA I was less than an hour from the Limonite Auction, aka Mike's Livestock Auction, and it was a rather horrible example of where you send a horse you can't afford to euthanize. In CA to euth and dispose of the carcass can cost upwards of $1000. I HATED going to that auction and wouldn't buy a horse there for any reason.

When I came to OK, someone finally talked me into go to the Bristow Auction and I was shocked speechless. There were families with their kids there! It was a huge social occasion and lots of horses were bought and sold. Yes, the KBs were there but ...... I saw a lot more horses going home with just people than to the KBs.

Then someone got me to go to the Triangle sale......that's a pretty cool auction and I got a great mare there, Honey Boo Boo, for what I consider an absolute STEAL of a price. These are more performance oriented folks and she is halter bred, so I didn't have a lot of competition when I bought her. I bought this exquisite mare for LESS than what the bottom line KB price used to be for a Fugly Mutt horse and I got her papers.

Another shocker, the KB who lives down the street from me was there. And what was he doing at a performance horse auction? He was selling some of the good horses he'd bought at Bristow, that he'd taken home and had trained for a job, and he was turning them around for good money. WHAT? You sure never saw THAT in CA.

But even the BEST horses at the Triangle Sale are bringing in less than they should be and horses that maybe aren't quite what the performance folks are looking for are bringing in next to NOTHING. I agree with Cherie, we need the bottom line auctions to set the price bar to give a bottom price to our horses. The only way that price bar gets raised is when there are much fewer unwanted horses than there are today. That is only accomplished when we can cull the less than desirable in an effective way, for instance slaughter.

There are a lot of scare tactics being used about how undesirable some of the workers in the plants are, the OP referred to illegals, but I'm going to say that there are enough folks here who are hungry and below the poverty line to compete for those jobs now. The economy is such that most folks are not turning their noses up at a job that provides a paycheck for a legal endeavor. Then there's the contamination scare tactic, i.e. It's contaminated by BUTE!. We need to develop withdrawal times for these drugs that we use for horses, there currently aren't any and thus, the contamination scares.

Hunger in OK and on a wider scale, the US, are pet peeves of mine. If lifting the ban on horse meat would feed even 1 family and keep the kids from being hungry when not in school, then I'm all for it.
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post #14 of 113 Old 03-12-2013, 01:36 PM
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Pro slaughter, here, too. The last slaughterhouse in the US to be closed was 3 1/2 hours north of me, in Illinois. Bleeding hearts won't allow it be reestablished in MY state. GOOD for OK!!! You aren't that far from me.

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post #15 of 113 Old 03-12-2013, 01:48 PM
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And I forgot, perhaps the most important issue, around non-slaughter of horses. I have horses, and have taken in horses to rehab and sell and have sold horses to others. Occasionally I'll get a horse that just "ain't right". If there's a ban on slaughter then there's no market for that horse because I won't resell it to a person as a riding horse if I feel it's a danger. That only leaves one place for it to go, the auction and likely, the KB will buy it because I won't be sending it through the "Ride" section of horses, it will be run through by the pound.

When I've talked to people who are against sending any horse to slaughter, I've asked them, "Ok, where should they go? How many would you like to take to save them?" and the answer has always been, "Well, I can't actually TAKE a HORSE, I mean they're expensive!" So what then? Where should this horse go? I didn't make him crazy, I tried to work with him and he just proved to be too unreliable to be safe. So, should I take him to a local riding area and turn him loose to starve in the wild? Tie him to someone else's trailer? Drop him in someone else's pasture? I won't do that.

So my challenge to anti-slaughter folks remains: What is the constructive solution to the ban on slaughter? How would you provide a way to keep all the unwanted horses safe and fed and vetted and current on their farrier work? There are many worse things than dead. Starving, sick or severely injured comes to mind.

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post #16 of 113 Old 03-12-2013, 02:03 PM
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I would prefer that there were slaughter yards no more than 100 miles from every horse that needs to be travelling to one.
They can process horses for slaughter for consumption or euthanise and cremate those that cant for whatever reason go for consumption
Its a service that every horse owning country should have and closing them down and sending horses on long trips to Mexico or Canada is cruelty. At least if they were easily accessible caring owners could take their horses by appointment or have them shot at home and taken away as they can in the UK and be sure they get treated correctly through the process
If horses are going to be seen as consumption animals in the wider sense there are going to have to be clinical trials done on all drugs currently used on horses to certify withdrawal times and residues that remain in deep tissue - though as far as I know there are no withdrawal times for Bute in cattle either - the law is that they cant be slaughtered for consumption if they've been given Bute as its classed as a prohibited drug so no tests have ever been done - I'm not sure that this will be changed for horses
Not sure if there is any update on the EU closing the door on all horses that dont have recorded drug useage data - in the wake of the horsemeat lasgane and burgers things are tightening up even more over there.
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post #17 of 113 Old 03-12-2013, 11:37 PM
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1) Why do you prefer that horses have to stand on a truck for 18 hours or more to be hauled to Mexico where there is no control over the actual slaughter process than to have processing plants here in the US? - I don't want them to be transported for up to 24 hours without food, rest or water (which the law allows) to get them to Oklahoma in the same condition. And honestly, there isn't much control over the slaughter process here either. The plants have high fences for a reason.
Actually, they have high fences to keep the animal rights terrorists from burning them down like they burned down the plant in Illinois and have burned down research laboratories, animals and all.

There can be as much control over American Processing Plants as is written into their permits to operate. American industries, as a whole, do not 'self regulate' very well. So, I would hope, like the modern, new hog and cattle processing facilities that have been built in the last 10 years, horse processing facilities would be planned and built around safely and humane horse treatment.
Obviously, any industry started up from scratch can be built and run to any standard.

2) What would you do with the 20,000 to 30,000 horses that are sent to Mexico every year from Oklahoma alone if slaughter was not an option? - Abuse and abandonment are still covered by existing laws. Many of the people who think they have no way out can find someone or an organization to help them if they try. My evidence is the number of people who offer to take in or find feed for abandoned horses when the story hits the news.
What fantasy world do you live in? We have child abuse laws and statutes against all kinds of things that can't be enforced. If you don't think horse neglect and starvation have increased since the US plants closed, I invite you to go speak to any 'Country Vet' with a small town Country Practice. [Not the big Equine Centers that have specialized show and race horse practices.] The local Vet Clinic with a large / small animal practice said their horse practice dropped by 75% when the plants closed and the 'saddle horse' market crashed. This was 2 years before any drop in the economy. The Ada Vet Clinic saw such a drop in horse care that when our Vet retired from there, they did not replace him and dropped their horse practice all together. Most Country Vets I have talked to say they have seen a ten fold increase in neglected and starved horses. Any Sheriff's office will tell you that they have had a 5 - 10 X increase in horse neglect cases being turned in.

1. Where will this plant be built? Maybe along I35 south of Oklahoma City would be a good place. Convenient for all of the horses from other states coming in. Expect a fight from whoever will be its neighbors.

I would expect any new plants to built in very rural areas like the hog plants built in the panhandle. I would not expect any of them to built in urban or suburban areas. Most processing plants in those areas have been closed. I agree -- they do not smell good, but then, a lot of manufacturing and refining facilities don't smell good and don't belong in urban areas. I drove past a paper mill one time and I though it was the awfulest smelling thing I ever smelled.

2. Who will work in the plant? This work has usually been done by experienced people coming from a country just to the south of us whether they have work papers or not. They should fit right in with the local population in Oklahoma.
I, too, find this very offensive. If you do not like the people of Oklahoma why don't you take your elitist attitude and move to another state. If there are not enough 'Americans' to fill these jobs, I expect there will very soon be an immigration bill that includes a 'guest worker' provision to fill the jobs that you and those like you are too good for.

3. Who will end up paying for all of the inspections and litigation the plant causes? Me. USDA and State Health officials are going to be constantly called there to inspect it and State lawyers will be called on to sue them for environmental problems.

I don't know how new plants will be set up. I do know that previously, plant owners offered to pay the USDA Inspection costs. Litigation costs will be paid for by the groups like the HSUS and Animal rights nuts on one side against the plant owners on the other. I do not see how that will affect you unless YOU join a lawsuit against them.

5. Who will benefit from the meat? Only European companies will make a tidy profit from the meat and spend next to nothing in Oklahoma except lawyer fees.
WHAT? Any processing plant built in OK will have a payroll paid to employees working and living in OK. It will provide Oklahoma jobs. Meat sold abroad can only help our horrible 'Balance of Trade Deficit' just like the beef and pork that is exported. It will GREATLY increase the value of all horses sold by Oklahoma horsemen by getting that 'floor price' back up where it belongs.

6. Are the horses we send to slaughter free of the drugs, medication and other chemicals that we routinely use in our horses? Probably not, which means they should not be slaughtered for human consumption. Horses raised specifically for slaughter cost more to raise than beef. I guess that's not our problem.

Only a very small percentage of horses have any medication or chemical residues. Meat tested from the Belgian owned plant in Mexico have had fewer than 1% of meat show traces of anything and not one specimen has shown toxic levels of anything. There are Universities that are testing drugs like Butezolodin right now. So far, I have been told that the 'half life' of Bute in a horse (other than its liver) is less than 24 hours. That means that in 72 hours, less than 1/8 of a gram of Bute is spread out through more than 500# of meat. Someone would have to eat 3 horses (1500# of meat) in one day to get a measurable amount of Bute into their system. While dozens of people have died from 'Mad Cow' disease, not one person anywhere in Europe has ever been sickened (let alone died) from drug or chemical contaminated horse meat. There is a lot greater danger of getting antibiotic contaminated meat from eating beef.
7. Who is going to compensate me when my horse is stolen and the thief drives straight to the gates of the slaughterhouse with phony ownership papers to sell it? No one. At least now, I may be able to catch the horse at an auction or find out where it went for it's 18 hour drive and stop it and hope it's not injured too badly. The slaughterhouse doesn't have time to back check the history of all of the horses it receives and won't care about brands, tattoos or chips if it has a bill of sale.

All slaughter horses are purchased through authorized brokers just like cattle are. For more than 20 years no one has been able to pull a trailer up to any of the cattle or hog slaughter plant and sell a steer or a hog. These horses are micro-chipped at the sale barns before they are loaded onto a truck. Most slaughter horse buyers are also 'horse traders' and buy a lot of horses that they have ridden to see if they are sound, sane and marketable. Those horses are NOT micro-chipped. If they ride good, they will be sold for a profit. If they aren't sound or don't ride, they get micro-chipped and head to the feedlot or packing house. APHIS, animal Identification rules, will have to be followed for horses just like they are going to go into effect for cattle. No one is going to take your horse and haul it to a slaughter house. It may go to a sale barn, but if it is micro-chipped, it will be 'read' before another chip can be put in to designate it as 'slaughter bound'.

Maybe I'm against it in Oklahoma because I don't want it here. These plants have terrible safety and environmental records and have been closed in this country for many reasons besides the ones I asked about.
'They' have terrible safety and environmental records? Excuse me, but 'they' are no longer in existence. Any new plants will be just that -- NEW. They can be set up a good as people make them be set up. The group currently looking for a place to put in a plant have American investors and are working on markets in Asia and South America. They have also found a big market waiting for 'cheval' as horse meet is called, in the US among the ethnic populations that are used to eating it in their native countries. It is healthier than beef or pork as far as protein content and cholesterol, etc. And again, not one person has ever died from eating it.

I am sure I am probably older than you, but I can remember seeing it in meat markets when I was a child.
Any old laws I have found prohibiting its sale (like the 1947 law that shut down the Texas plants) were brought about by the cattle industry right after WWII to protect their market. After the war, the price of beef fell to less than half of what it was. Cattlemen did not want the competition from horse meat and got the State Legislature in Texas to ban its sale. It was that old law that led to the closing of the Texas plants.

Again, I invite you to attend the local sale with me. I think you are 'clueless' as to how the market place works and who actually bids on the horses. Obviously, you do not know how it works or you would not 'demonize' the sale barn owner from the Bristow sale.

I did not proof read this, so excuse all the mistakes.
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post #18 of 113 Old 03-13-2013, 12:17 AM
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Hey iv ate horse meat, i think it should be on the dinner plate instead of beef, its higher in protien and has next to zero fat. Im not for or against slaughter, i think more people should have horses or take in horses for meat, if not for them, for doggy chow. Im generally against eating meat prepared by factories though, to many hormones, which is why i raise my own cattle and chickens, i dont know if i could eat a horse after owning it but if i had to i deffinatly would. especially if the horse had isues, then id be happy to eat it.

If your horse thinks your the greatest person in the world dont seek a second opinion.

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post #19 of 113 Old 03-14-2013, 09:14 AM
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I remember the good days when you could get several hundred dollars for the craziest of horses. But just last week I sent a CRAZY dumb dangerous 20 year old Palomino to the KB. 16 hand high, decent condition, owner had been trying to give him away for 6 months. I got $80 for him at the KB, which is higher than 75% of the ones at the auction here that are actually decent horses.

I remember when $600 bought you a green broke grade horse. $600 now will buy you a well bred well broke horse AND it's tack!
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post #20 of 113 Old 03-14-2013, 04:16 PM
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I'm anti-slaughter & yes, I'm a bleeding heart. I also take care of my own & won't be made to feel guilty for not taking on someone else's outcast.
I feel everyone should do what they think is best for their own peace of mind.
Slaughter numbers have stayed about the same whether they are killed here or there. Nothing about slaughter is convenient for the horse as their plight is just beginning anew when the owner drives off from the auction yard (or however they do it).
I would be haunted forever if I sent off a horse but hold no ill will to those that do.

Slaughter will exist somewhere as long as there is a market & $ involved.
I'll put my time & money into my own animals instead of fighting something I cannot change.
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