Law allowing horse slaughter in Oklahoma - Page 9

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Law allowing horse slaughter in Oklahoma

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    04-01-2013, 06:37 PM
So having foreign business INVEST in the U.S. (doing business in the U.S., buying U.S. Dollars, paying U.S. Taxes), creating jobs, supporting American businesses (transporters, auctions, ports/airports, equipment suppliers, etc), and exporting American horsemeat to foreign markets is not economically beneficial? What exactly is your definition of economically beneficial?
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    04-01-2013, 06:43 PM
R-Calf supports horse slaughter and I have yet to talk to any cattle owner that is concerned about the price of beef cattle dropping because of it.

Mr. Pacelle of the HSUS is trying to stir the pot and "scare" beef producers into jumping on board with banning slaughter. Beef producers have a different outlook on it, they figure if you ban horse slaughter how much much longer will beef slaughter, chicken slaughter or whatever is banned as well. They more concerned about the slippery slope of banning animal slaughter rather than price dropping.
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    04-01-2013, 06:46 PM
Stopping slaughter WILL NOT reduce breeding. No way, no how. The people who are breeding just to breed will continue to do so and sell their babies for a couple of hundred bucks to anyone who wants them. All stopping slaughter does is make it impossible to send an UNWANTED horse to a plant. It doesn't stop it from being dumped in the desert to fend for itself, it doesn't stop it from being dumped at the local fairgrounds and left, it doesn't stop it from being put in the "north forty" where nobody can see it and watch it starve to death because it no longer is healthy enough to ride or whatever. Or used for target practice..Slaughter doesn't "care" about equine welfare , but its a good thing to have for the horses whose owners who won't pay to euthanize them by the vet to put them out of the misery and instead let them die painful deaths.
I am glad you work for a horse rescue, that is wonderful.. You still are not realizing that there ARE horses that can't be given a job. There are horses that are NO LONGER able to do anything but eat, and just hanging around and eating all day is expensive. NO RESCUE can keep every horse alive to give it a job. That is not even feasable or reality, that is a dream.
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    04-01-2013, 06:58 PM
Originally Posted by wyominggrandma    
I love when folks get on here and cry about us "meanies" who are pro slaughter. They always say the same thing: these old, crippled, dangerous, "fill in the blank" horses should be rescued and not slaughtered. Umm, I don't see the humaniacs down at the auctions buying them up and putting them out on their big ranches and feeding these horses to save them. I don't see them buying off Craigs list or wherever and saving all these horses. Heck, I am sure half the time, the humaniacs live in the city and don't own horses, they expect everyone else to fix the problem. Why don't they donate their paychecks to feed starving horses? Yea, right... HUMANIACS, as I call them, all have the typical agenda that PETA, SHARK and the HSUS have: get rid of all animals forever and just pay them all the money they bring in from suckers who believe their agendas..
Really? Old, sick and dangerous? According to a study conducted by the USDA, 92% are considered to be in good condition. At Little Brook Farm, the horse rescue which I am involved with, I can only recall 1 horse who was so behaviorally messed up that he was unable to be fixed. The horses that are sent to slaughter aren't old or sick and many aren't dangerous.

Oh, and by the way, I live in the country, have 5 horses (4 of which are grade) and I sponsor one of the horses at Little Brook Farm.
    04-01-2013, 07:05 PM
Originally Posted by Allegro    
I have merely noticed, through research on BOTH PARTS of the argument, that horse slaughter is not an economical decision for America. The truth is, horse slaughter is costly, and will not benefit our economy. Also, horse slaughter will not reduce the number of unwanted horses. It only PROMOTES irresponsible breeding through providing a dumping ground for breeders who breed irresponsibly.

Slaughtering horses is no more costly than slaughtering cattle. The only difference is in the handling of the live animal. Slaughter does not promote the breeding of unwanted horses. Even with the lack of slaughter houses here in the US, how many news stories have we seen about someone who had anywhere from 100 to 1000 feral horses running on their land and continuing to breed and inbreed and inbreed? Stupid people promote irresponsible breeding and they will continue to do it regardless of whether there is an actual outlet for the resulting animals or not.

Also, how can having another meat product available for export/purchase going to possibly be bad for our economy? Very soon, beef is going to be too expensive for many people to buy due to the extensive drought the last couple of years and the massive sell-off that resulted. Instead of having another red meat alternative that was less expensive, you'd rather they just go without? Because of the aversion to eating horse meat here in the US, the sale of horse meat for consumption will never overshadow the sale of beef, it's just not going to happen.

With regards to your statement about unwanted horses never being in demand, that just goes to show how little experience you have had with them.

Wow, nice way to make assumptions about someone that you don't know. Cherie has probably saved more horses from going to the killer than you can imagine...definitely more than the 70 that your rescue has saved. She's been in the horse business for, I believe, over 50 years.

The horse rescue that I am involved with, Little Brook Farm, has rescued over 70 horses. Many of their horses are used in riding lessons, camps, eventing, show jumping, and dressage. Hamlet, one of their horses who was rescued for a few hundred dollars, is a grade who was headed for slaughter. He now competes in training level eventing. They have received an offer, which they turned down, for $40,000 for this horse. He was previously in the bracket of "unwanted horses" and would have ended up in slaughter had they not have rescued him. Another one of their horses, a thoroughbred, was appraised for $22,000 only a few months after his rescue. Yet another example of the value of the so-called unwanted horses is a horse they just recently rescued. He is a thoroughbred who was bought as a two-year old for $150,000. Just a few years following, he was headed for slaughter, emaciated. He is now a healthy, sound, 5 year-old. The truth is, if a majority of the unwanted horses were given training and care instead of being sent to slaughter, they would be perfectly useful horses.

How nice that you were able to find some diamonds in the rough, but not all slaughter bound horses are suitable to be rescued and rehabbed into trustworthy riding partners. Many are older, unbroke/unhandled, lame, diseased, soured/ruined, or psychotic. What other outlet is there for those horses?

Banning slaughter would reduce the number of horses bred, as breeders would be unable to dump their horses and would instead have to find homes for them.

No, sorry, that's not the way it works as has been evident in the last few years regarding horse care and breeding even with the lack of slaughter here in the US. People continue to breed their fugly mutts because it's a speshul kolor or a rare designer breed like a Pintaloosafresian or exhibits some speshul gait like 3-legged-crab. They still continue to sell them off to poor unsuspecting beginner riders/buyers who see a pretty face and fall in love. If they don't find a buyer, they simply dump them at the local auction and hope they can get $25 or $50 bucks for them. Those people don't care if they get that money from the killer or some poor naive soul or some "rescue".

It would actually be a good business opportunity, as people would soon realize the value of many of these horses once their are trained. There would be more places like Little Brook Farm, who take the population of primarily good horses (although unwanted) and train them in something at which they excel. The truth is, most of the unwanted horses are only unwanted because they have not been given a job.

The thing is, bleeding hearts go around "rescuing" those horses that look to be in need of the most help, not those horses that could go on to live a full and productive life. How many news stories have you read in the last few years about someone "saving" a horse that will be capable of nothing more than plodding around the pasture as a companion for the rest of it's life; that horse with the prosthetic leg, that horse that was badly burned, etc. Those people spend thousands of dollars on saving one animal that will never be good for anything when they could have taken those thousands of dollars and bought a dozen or more young/unhandled horses, rehabbed/trained them, and found them good homes. Nope, they feel like they are doing more good by saving the animal that should be put down than saving the animals that have the best chance at a real life.

Because those bleeding hearts "save" those horses that are basically worthless in the grand scheme of things, then a horse that is actually nice and broke and worthwhile is losing a potential home.

Finally, horse slaughter is NOT humane. Everything, from being loaded into Double-decker stock trailers (supposed to be illegal, but still happens), to the actual slaughter process. By the way, I have read articles from the AVMA. The captive bolt is designed (even according to the AVMA and AAEP) to be administered by a veterinarian. Veterinarians do not administer the captive bolt in slaughter houses. It is administered by employees who are not highly trained on administration of this device. This, combined with the lack of proper head restraint, causes a decreased accuracy. Since the captive bolt can only be administered effectively to a very precise location, it frequently results in ineffective stunning.
The thing is, it's a lesser of 2 evils thing. Nothing about killing an animal in any fashion is ever going to be humane in your sense of the word (completely painless and stress free). Even "humane euthanasia" isn't always humane, I've seen it go wrong even when administered by a good vet. When that goes wrong, it goes very wrong.

But, with increased funding for setting up proper slaughter houses, designed for horses instead of cattle, there is increased funding for education for the folks doing the actual handling and killing, there is increased funding for equipment and fencing designed for horses to make the experience as low stress as possible.

As to your post with those links, they are irrelevant because they are not dealing with the subject at hand. You're trying to compare apples to pomegranates there. It was not the presence of horse slaughter and the sale of horse meat that caused that drop, it was the fault of big businesses who compromised the quality of their products and then proceeded to mis-label them.

It's no different than when we have an outbreak of salmonella or e-coli here in the US. Whatever produce it happens to be found on (tomatoes, cantaloupe, jalapeņos, lettuce, etc), then the sale of that particular produce fall off for a time because people are scared.
    04-01-2013, 07:07 PM
Originally Posted by COWCHICK77    
R-Calf supports horse slaughter and I have yet to talk to any cattle owner that is concerned about the price of beef cattle dropping because of it.

Mr. Pacelle of the HSUS is trying to stir the pot and "scare" beef producers into jumping on board with banning slaughter. Beef producers have a different outlook on it, they figure if you ban horse slaughter how much much longer will beef slaughter, chicken slaughter or whatever is banned as well. They more concerned about the slippery slope of banning animal slaughter rather than price dropping.
Perhaps you didn't take the time to notice where my links came from. Go back and check... did any of them come from the HSUS? Nope. They came from EUROPEAN news articles.
    04-01-2013, 07:11 PM
And we live in the U.S......................
Guess I go to different auctions than you, I see horses that are so dangerous/spoiled that they are DANGEROUS........ I have seen very old, crippled and sick horses. Nobody wants them. I am so glad you work for a horse rescue and have horses. I work for a vet and see the bad ones, the sick ones, the dangerous ones. I don't look at the world and see hearts and rainbows, I see real life.
You have decided that your opinion and links and data are the only truthful ones. Guess the rest of us don't know anything.
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    04-01-2013, 07:13 PM
Good for you that you work for a rescue and are one part of the solution, you are already doing more than most that are against slaughter.
I used to work for a couple of horse auctions, I seen what goes through, who buys and what price the horses went for. I would buy a trailer load, ride them and sell them to a suitable home. Some would consider it "Horse Trading", which seems to be a dirty word anymore, but in reality I was giving horses a second chance.
I was also around when things went to sh!t and security was needed to keep people from dumping horses at the auctions, or turning horses loose or out with other peoples horses, that was reality, not just something I read on the internet. The price of decent saddle horses dropped so much that it wasn't worth trying to buy, retrain(while feeding them!) to resell. With the increase of horse prices comes the interest to buy those "unwanted" or loose horses in the sale and rehome them.
    04-01-2013, 07:17 PM
I didn't say the articles you posted came from HSUS.
Wayne Pacelle of the HSUS is the one here in the United States, not Europe, claiming that beef prices will drop as scare tactic.
Cherie likes this.
    04-01-2013, 11:32 PM
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Wow! You've volunteered at a rescue that has saved 70 horses from slaughter. Goody for them. That only leaves 150,930 that they didn't save last year. And what would you propose should be done with them? I am still waiting for someone to answer this for me. You have a ways to go.

I have personally 'rescued probably twice that many all by myself. That is only the ones that were 'keepers' and not the ones that did not work out. You know how I did it? I bid one bid higher than the slaughter buyer at the local auction. I'm afraid my motives were not so noble. I did not bid on them to 'save' them. I bid on them because I though they would make me money and/or fill a hole I had for a certain kind of horse. About half of them have to go back to a later sale because they did not work. Some times they get no private bids and some times they do. Most ride better and look better when they re-sell, but for some reason they were not going to be what I needed. Some have health problems, soundness problems, won't get along in a herd, are too spoiled to do the job I had for them like being 'cold backed', and the list goes on and on.

If you go to my 'profile' page here on the forum, the little bay gelding my 4 year old granddaughter is riding is a horse I rescued for $300.00 at the local sale barn. He was spoiled and came from a bucking string after 'flunking out' from a cutting trainer. He bucked everyone off and got packed off as a bucking horse. When he would not buck good enough he was hauled to the sale and I picked him up for one bid more than the slaughter buyer. He and three other horses in my present trail string were 'sale barn rescues'. I would never 'adopt' or buy from a rescue, but I have nothing against buying a bargain at an auction. The last one I took back was WAAAY to mean to run with other geldings or ride in a group of horses. But, when he went back to the auction, he sold to an individual and actually made a couple hundred bucks. He did ride better just from the few rides we put on him. Another one I took back about that same time was wind-broke, roared really badly and heaved so badly if you rode him faster than a walk, that he was unusable. He seemed like he would have been a really nice horse otherwise. I disclosed that he was wind-broke when I resold him and he got no other bids. I guess you could have 'saved' him and thrown thousands of $$$$ at him and still had a wind-broke horse. If I had unlimited funds and did not have to make a living, I would have 'donated' him to a hippotherapy program to see if he was kind enough and could be sound enough for that job.

Your numbers are really completely unrealistic. If I watch 100 horses go to the slaughter buyers at a sale, I know they are going to ship over half of them straight to the processing plant or feed lot. Those horses are micro-chipped at the sale barn before they leave. They cannot be resold.

The others will go to their ranch and will be 'tried' to see if they can be resold for more money than slaughter price to other horse traders and other horse buyers. I used to know (pretty well) a couple of the other slaughter buyers in years past. They said fewer than half of the ones they actually tried out were marketable. Sometime only 10% of them were marketable. I have usually been able to 'use' about half of the sale barn horses I have bought.

I do not think you have a clue what an 'unwanted horse' is. It is a horse that goes to a sale and receives no bids from private individuals. Would some of them make money in the right hands? Sure. But, You cannot go to a single sale where there are not dozens of buyers and traders there. If not one of them wants a certain horse, it is unwanted -- at least on that night. If they are all so great, why don't you go and stick your hands in the air a few times. You can then make all of the money on those wonderful horses. Some unwanted horses will be crooked legged or bad footed; Some will be just plain ugly; Some will be really bad movers with straight shoulders and bone jarring gaits; Some will go lame if they are ridden more than once a week or once a month; Some will have ringbones or bad tendons or ligaments; Some will have bone chips in joints; Some will be rank or just plain mean; You want ALL of them? Just go buy them. They are dirt cheap.

Well, I have to go back to the sale barn. I bought a $600.00 12 -14 year old 'gentle' gelding earlier today. Hope the Bute or Ace does not wear off by tomorrow and I find he is a different horse than I bought a couple of hours ago.

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