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Who should pay the vet bill?

10K views 50 replies 17 participants last post by  MacabreMikolaj 
#1 ·
Our mare foaled in the early morning hours. The horse is worth about $10,000 and the foal already cost us about $4,000 so they are pretty valuable foal and mare. We call for a vet to come. The on-call vet calls back and sez they don't come out for a birth. We call back and beg and plead because the foal hadn't found the milk yet and the mare seemed distressed. She wouldn't come. When the office opened I called and asked what the policy is and they asked how everyone was doing. They said it would be a good idea to send out a vet and draw blood on the foal but they wouldn't just come out for a normal birth. (Back up 2 years, this mare gave birth and retained her placenta which the vet came out and fixed)
The vet didn't come out all day. The next morning, the mare is down and near death. The vets come running out and spend all day. She had a retained placenta and it nearly killed her. The bill to fix the mare is over $1500. should I pay this bill or is it the vets responsibility? They would have found the placenta and fixed her and there would be no big bill if they had attended us as we asked and begged. What do you all think? Am I right or what? Do vets have some sort of malpractice protection? The vet that did come out said he always wants to be there for a foaling and the top vet in the office said the same. The vet on call that morning just didn't want to get her a$$ out of bed and deal with my problem.
 
#2 ·
I understand the vet not wanting to come out at such an early/late time but when you called again (during office hours?) i would think that they would have immediately sent a vet out. Especially in this economy, i would think the moment a call came in someone would be on their way out in hopes of getting a little income. (not trying to sound better then you, but would you mind re-wording that last sentence esp one of those 3 letter words. thanks)
 
#4 ·
That is something that must be taken up with your own lawyer. The civil laws regarding liability can vary greatly from state to state and especially country to country (don't know where you're from). Since it is unlikely that any of us are from your area and even if some are, it's even more unlikely that they are not experts on the laws and precedents of your local court system, any advice you got here would be a shot in the dark at best.

My suggestion is to consult with a lawyer and see what they have to say.
 
#5 ·
I would find another vet for one. I don't know what the liability is on them not coming out for the baby, it's strange for me because my vet comes out for births because the first 24 hours is critical and they want to make sure the baby is getting the colestrium. (however you spell it). I geuss vets have their own policies... I know that experienced breeders will make the decision to call the vet but they really know what they are looking at....
 
#6 ·
OH my gosh. I think you are going to have to pay the bill. But you could try a bluff get a lawyer to send a letter saying that you are preparying to sue if they do not ubsorbe the fee. It wont coast that much to do that. I would all so talke to the owner of the clinic and if they did not see what happend I would then black ball that vet and tell alll my local friends. We pay the over time and the farm call and what ever they want to take on cause we wake them up. They picked the job. You called cause you did not feel like it was a normal birth. If you thought it was normal you would not have called. Oh if that vet worked for my vet clinic (which I grew up with the owner) they would be fired.
Maby not for the first brush off but for the second bruch off during office hr.
 
#7 ·
The bill to fix the mare is over $1500. should I pay this bill or is it the vets responsibility? They would have found the placenta and fixed her and there would be no big bill if they had attended us as we asked and begged. What do you all think? Am I right or what? Do vets have some sort of malpractice protection? The vet that did come out said he always wants to be there for a foaling and the top vet in the office said the same. The vet on call that morning just didn't want to get her a$$ out of bed and deal with my problem.
If you're even thinking of trying to sue, a lawyer needs to be your first call, otherwise I would discuss the situation with the vet that owns the practice.

This question did make me curious since we have three mares, however, and I spent some time reading information about the vet rules/regulations/etc in NC from the state statutes and NC vet board. In my casual reading, it appears to me (and I am not a lawyer) that malpractice can only occur after the vet has accepted responsibility for treating the animal. To be safe, I suppose that if we ever decided to breed one of our mares, I would insure that we had an prior agreement with the vet to be available (or an associate) for a farm call when the foaling occurred (even though our vet answers his cell 24x7 and has never taken more than an hour to arrive regardless of the day/time).
 
#8 ·
Doveguy,

I think a critical question to answer is whether or not you informed the vet or the vet's office that the mare had a retained placenta. I would think 4 hours after the birth is plenty of time to allow for the mare to pass the placenta, but it's been a while since I foaled out a mare, so I'll defer to others on that one.

Also, I think you have to subtract out whatever a standard foaling call would cost, including standard, non-emergency treatment for the retained placenta, because you would have been paying for these regardless of when the vet decided to come out.

I'm also curious as to what part of the country you're in - in my area, vet attended foalings are common, and a vet visit the morning after to check over the mare and foal, pull blood for an IGG, etc. is absolutely routine. We were also instructed to save the placenta in uncomplicated foalings so the vet could double check if it was completely intact of if there was a retained piece during the morning after check.
 
#9 ·
I am in N. Virginia. I have known this vet office for years and have respect for lead vet's competence. It was the on call vet who refused to attend and the front office women who said it wasn't necessary to attend us. It is my opinion that the office staff made the error of not sending out a vet. I consider it an error of omission. They didn't do something to cause the problem but the problem happened as a result of them not attending. They know we rely on them and we are happy to pay for their expertise. Our vets are busy and have to be careful to not just waste time on calls where they are not really needed. The problem is they decided I didn't need them when I really did need them. Then when the did finally come, there was damage because they didn't come when I called them to come. I am happy to pay for the exams and the placenta levage and what they did that they would have done if they had come out in a timely manner but all the crisis management and emergency work was a direct result of them not attending on time and they should pay for that. I will probably send a letter to the lead vet and ask for a corrected bill. It will be interesting to see where this goes.
 
#27 ·
I am in N. Virginia. I have known this vet office for years and have respect for lead vet's competence. It was the on call vet who refused to attend and the front office women who said it wasn't necessary to attend us. It is my opinion that the office staff made the error of not sending out a vet. I consider it an error of omission. They didn't do something to cause the problem but the problem happened as a result of them not attending. They know we rely on them and we are happy to pay for their expertise. Our vets are busy and have to be careful to not just waste time on calls where they are not really needed. The problem is they decided I didn't need them when I really did need them. Then when the did finally come, there was damage because they didn't come when I called them to come. I am happy to pay for the exams and the placenta levage and what they did that they would have done if they had come out in a timely manner but all the crisis management and emergency work was a direct result of them not attending on time and they should pay for that. I will probably send a letter to the lead vet and ask for a corrected bill. It will be interesting to see where this goes.
I would tell the vet just this and I would think they would negotiate the bill. Something similar happened to me and they didn't come when called so it resulted in an after hours emercency call which I up front told them I was not going to pay as they should have come earlier. They didn't question it and they didn't charge me
 
#10 ·
Working for a two vet office here in Wyoming, they rotate their call nights so someone is on call 24/7. However, I realize in some areas the after hour emergency vets are not the normal one on call. Was this vet one of the normal vets from the office?
I doubt you can sue for something that wasn't done in the beginning and then cost more later on. Because I will assume the vet that did not take the call will say" the client did not inform me of a pre exhisting issue of a retained placenta when she placed the call and did not say it was an emergency. I felt the check up could wait until non emergency hours in the morning and I was never informed she called again that morning for a checkup".
If you did not inform the on call vet that the mare did have issues, then the vet assumed it was a normal birth and all was okay. Now, sounds as if the receptionist decided on her own that the call was not important the next morning, and sounds as if she made the decision to not tell the vet you called.
My advice is this: go into the veterinary clinic and ask to speak to the main vet. Or make an appointment to talk to him. Then explain the situation, but be honest with everything you said, and be sure to say you did not explain about the previous retained placenta, but still assumed the on call vet would come out as you asked.(after all they get paid emergency prices for after hour calls and I am sure the main practice owner would like the income)Then explain you called the next morning and the receptionist(name) did not feel it was necessary for the vet to come out right then and although you waited all day, a vet never came. (which tells me the receptionist never gave the request to any of the vets)Explain by the time the next morning rolls around the mare is near death and only then does a vet come out.
If you talk to the main owner, I imagine he/she will do a reduction in the bill to make you happy and to keep you a client since it seems the practice failed your mare and you.
If your mare had died, then yes you could have filed a malpractice suit, but again the first issue brought up would be that you did not say the mare had a history of retained placenta when you first called. You made the first mistake by not informing the vet about the placenta, the vet was lazy and did not want to come out during the night, the receptionist failed the next day it seems and then finally they did come out. I bet your main vet will reduce the amount owed. Just be calm and explain how you feel. good luck
 
#11 ·
May I ask whether you tried to get in touch with a different vet clinic at all?

If not, then I wouldn't even be thinking about kicking up a fuss.
 
#13 ·
Thanks for the input. We did talk about the retained placenta possibility and my wife pleaded for the visit. There are just countless things that could go wrong so when we were refused the second time, I called the office for clarification on the policy. When I spoke with the lead vet he said it was his policy to attend a birth. It seems there was a breakdown in the office. The vets say a birth is something they should attend but the office has to make a decision about where to send the vets. The office never scheduled the vets to attend. I don't think it is my responsibility to mention every possible issue that could be taking place with my horses. They should have known that births can go wrong in a hurry. At the very least, they should have sent out a vet after the 12 hour time to draw blood on the foal.
I have no relationship w/ any other vets. My vet has been my vet since he was working out of his garage. Now he has three large animal vets and two small animal vets working under him and it seems there are growing pains. I think my problem slipped between the cracks and I just didn't get the care that I requested and needed.
As for suing my vet, I never said I wanted to sue him. At this point, I owe him money. He would have to sue me. If my mare would have died, then I would have to consider suing him. He is a friend from way back and I hate the whole problem.
If I had refused or delayed allowing the vet to attend or had never called and requested they attend, then the bill would be rightfully mine to pay but because they didn't attend when I repeatedly requested it and then still never attended after they said it was their policy to attend (after 12 hours) then I feel the damages were caused by their lack of attention and the monetary damages should be paid by them.
 
#14 ·
It is easy to say that you would call vet after vet until someone attended but I trusted my vet to give me the service that I need and not necessarily the service that I want. They said I didn't need to be attended. My mare and foal seemed perfectly fine. I believed them and relied on their expert opinion. When I called that morning after the office opened, I asked the open ended question and relied on the answer. I am not a horse expert know-it-all. That is why I have a vet. I am not in the habit of arguing with my vet about what is best for my horses or when I need to be attended. It is really simple. I relied on their answer and the damage was done because of it.
 
#19 · (Edited)
I understand what you are saying, but it is your responsibility to make sure the office people know you WANT the vet to come out. If you feel your animal needs a vet, then you tell them that. Office personal are usually just that, office personal. Most of them don't know the difference between an emergency or not, you have to tell them. Force them to listen if need be. Demand to talk to a vet.
As an animal owner, YOU are ultimately responsible for the care your animals receive. I understand your loyalty to this vet, BUT there may come a time in the future that you have to rely on another vet at another office.
You need to explain to this vet friend how you feel you were treated. Then the vet needs to evaluate his office personal and find out where the bottom fell out of this mess. However, even if your horse or foal had died, YOU are still the one that would be considered wrong. No judge in the world is going to make your vet pay for something they did not do. Even if it fell through the cracks of the front desk, even if the vet felt they did not need to come out, YOU are the one to have to decide to find another vet if your animal is in trouble.
If one of your family members was having a heart attack and you went to the doctor and the doctor was gone, would you wait for that doctor to come back or go find another doctor? I realize this is sorta a stupid comparision, but YOU sometimes have to make decisions based on the needs of your animals, even if that mean using another vet. Ultimately you are responsible for the decision not to get another vet out that night, for not continually calling the vet clinic the next day until they sent someone out and waiting until your horse was down and having the vet finally show up. There was nothing to stop you from calling another vet except your loyalty to the friend vet, and it almost cost you.
Sorry, I am not trying to be harsh here, but when someone calls us at the clinic and says they have an animal in trouble and we say do you want a vet out right now.. If yes, we sent out a vet as quick as we can. If they say" well maybe I will watch the animal for a day or so and it dies, it is not our fault. .
I love the vets I work for and have worked with them for years and years. BUT, if I had an emergency and neither could come out because they were both busy, you can bet I would be calling another vet immediately, if my animals life was in jeapordy I would not be waiting around. Plus your vet the friend, should understand that.
You are responsible for the bill. Period. But I still imagine you can explain what happened and he might do a reduction. Do not expect the office personal to be able to decide if you need help, most are not experts and can't make a decision like that. Our practice is small and the vet techs do the front office also, we are able to help give advice to a point, but always go to the vet to either ask them to talk to the person or tell us what to say. Some offices are so big and busy, the front people just make appointments.
 
#20 ·
Wyoming, Thanks for the extensive input. That is exactly why I posted the question. I have my perspective and opinion but I am not sure that it is right. Before I approach the vet office, I want to better understand their perspective and you have provided that very well.

The whole problem is stemming from my inability to know how to recognize danger signs. Of course when my horse is down, I would call another vet if my vet said they couldn't or wouldn't attend. The problem is my horse had a retained placenta and had no signs of it. You might ask if I examined the placenta but I didn't know what I was looking at.

Early in the morning, my wife did remind the on call vet about her concern about a retained placenta but later when I called, I didn't remind the vet about that. I just asked if or when they would come and should they come out. My point is the vet did have a policy of wanting to be present at births or as quickly following a birth as possible but his on-call vet didn't follow his policy and his office staff didn't prioritize my need even though I didn't push to be attended and didn't really even recognize that I had a need. I guess the vet could say, it is my responsibility to know when a vet is needed but in this case I couldn't tell but they should have known that I was in need. Now it sounds like I am whining.

Thanks for everyone's input. As usual, it is helpful.
 
#21 ·
To me it sounds like the planets all aligned and twice things just did not work right.

I am hesitant to point fingers at the vet(s) or you.


In your case I would make an appointment to sit down with the head vet of the practice to discuss having the bill lowered because of the issues. This will also give you an opportunity to explain what happened and hopefully give your vet some insight into an area of the practice that needs looking into.
 
#22 ·
You are talking in circles.

The decision to own horses is yours. The decision to breed your mare is yours. The decision to not have her foal at a facility that is equipped to handle special needs cases is yours.

When you called in you asked IF they attended a foaling. MOST mares do just fine on their own - thus the office would say - no they do not need to attend.

YOU need to pay the vet bill.
 
#23 ·
No you are not whining. But like I said, yes you trust your vet to take care of your animals, but the front office people might not have a clue you are putting all your trust in them and wanting them to tell you what to do next. so, next time, either ask to speak to a vet or have a message that you need to speak to one asap. Just remember, if YOU feel your animal needs a vet, then YOU speak up and TELL the front office you want a vet. You know your animal better than anyone. Depending on how big the practice is, you might just be a number to the front folks, but a good friend of the head vet, but get lost in the middle.Don't ever be afraid to say "I need to speak to a vet, this is an emergency".
 
#24 ·
Alwaysbehind, what I will do is write a letter which explains my thoughts and gives my perspective. He can call me or respond in writing which I think gives both of us the opportunity to say clearly what we think w/o making a knee-jerk response or saying something that we didn't mean.

MLS, I appreciate your point. I don't see where I am talking in circles. Maybe you didn't see where I wrote that the lead vet said that he would have come out immediately to check on our foal had he known that she had foaled. The office staff made a decision for him that is contrary to his personal judgment. They didn't send a vet and they should have. While most mares foal w/ no problems, the lead vets opinion is that a vet should attend in every case. Now if I had refused to let the vet come or had delayed him, the bill would be mine. The delay came from his office staff so some degree of responsibility should be theirs.

Wyoming,
I'm not afraid to demand the vet attend and I did just that the next morning when the mare was in crisis. At the time of the birth, I didn't understand that a vet should come out even though the birth seemed to me to go w/o a problem.

Again, thanks for everyone's input. It has prepared me to better understand how the vet might feel about the situation before I talk with him.
 
#25 · (Edited)
There's a part of this that I really don't understand -

Checking for retained placenta is pretty simple and doesn't require advanced training. You spread the placenta out and look for holes or gaps.

No placenta at all after four hours? You have an emergency and should call the vet and tell them the mare has failed to deliver the placenta.

The mare delivers the placenta, you check it, if you think a piece is missing, you call the vet, tell them, and that's a legitmate emergency.

The mare delivers the placenta, you think it's intact, but 24 hours later she develops symptoms of septicema, you call the vet, it's a serious emergency.

What I don't get in this story is that you have a mare with a history of retained placenta, but don't check the afterbirth (that's what I'm concluded from what you've said, if I have that wrong, I apologize) and wait until the mare has developed symptoms of speticema before calling the vet.

If the mare has a history of retained placenta, and I couldn't get a vet to attend the foaling, I would be checking the afterbirth *very* carefully, and probably taking the mare's temperature every couple of hours, alert to the possibility that she might develop systems.

I don't know exactly what your experience or situation is; and I do get the sense that there was a serious communication problem here between you and the vet's office. But I can't avoid the sense that you didn't take the actions I would expect an experienced mare owner to take.
 
#26 ·
I have only read the OP, so bear with me.

Sueing your vet for the money is going to be a long, expensive process. It's best to call them up and talk with them calmly, discuss why you are upset, and hear their take on the issue.

We had a similar problem two years ago. We had a maiden miniature foaling, called the vet up, and she gave us some advice and said she was coming. Gave her our address while the mare was having major problems. Five minutes later, we lose the foal, and her response on the phone? "Do you still want me to come out?" Apparently she was sitting in the bathtub, said she was on her way, and would not get out of the tub to come.
 
#28 ·
Honest opinion here.

You made the decision not to call another vet. Whatever reasons you may have, you still made that choice.

IMO, any emergency situations that arise from a decision that you made are your responsibility.

I am not condoning the vet's actions (or vet staff). They should have come out when you called them.

However, your horse, your responsibility. If you were not happy with their decision to not attend, make one of your own and find someone who will attend.

If you trusted their opinion that they didn't need to attend, then you absolved them of any responsibility should something go wrong, which obviously it did.

You had the option to put your foot down, either with your vet, or another vet and say "No! I want a vet out here now!" You didn't do that. The responsibility is yours and no one elses.

IMO.
 
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