Anyone willing to help me? Hay analysis in, need help deciphering
   

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Anyone willing to help me? Hay analysis in, need help deciphering

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  • How to interpret a hay analysis for low-carb hay
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    08-07-2013, 10:25 PM
  #1
Foal
Anyone willing to help me? Hay analysis in, need help deciphering

I have 2 lots of round bales, one is grass(timothy, orchard)/alfalfa mix (around 90/10) and the other is pretty much straight grass (orchard, timothy, some brome with some clover) both are nice looking hay, but the grass/alfalfa is a bit better quality.

I was thinking of alternating between the 2 but I'm really unsure how to individualize my feeding program. The hay will be fed in a slow feed (1 1/4" CC net) free choice minerals offered at all times, as well as free choice white salt lick and water.

Horses:

22yo AQHA gelding, 1350lbs, not being ridden at the moment, I suspect him to be IR so I try to feed him that way. Currently getting a handful of SeniorGlo a day to get his supplements in, SmartFlex Senior, SmartBug OFF and 1/2c flax.

Yearling arab/welsh filly, around 500lbs, minimal long line work. Currently being fed 5lbs of JuniorGlo a day.

Both are on pasture at night, in dry lot during day. Hay taken from behind the pasture and across the road, so based on the hay analysis, it may be an indication of what the pasture would test like.

Last winter my gelding lost muscle mass, specifically his topline, and I want to make sure he is getting what he needs being older, and my filly gets what she needs while she is growing.

Waiting on wet chem for micro minerals, will add that when I get it.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
     
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    08-09-2013, 01:06 PM
  #2
Started
Your hay analysis was done for dairy cows so some of the data just doesn't apply and you just have TMI.

Strip it down to what you need: Protein, ADF, NDF, lignin, NFC, RFQ (RFV), DE, and the minerals Ca, P and Mg.

Sample 1 2
Protein 12.3 8.6
ADF 35.9 37.7
NDF 57 56.7
NFC 26.6 28.2
Lignin 5.5 6.5
RFQ 106 96.4
Ca .67 .77
P .21 .16
Mg .21 .22

Hopefully I copied those down right.

Protein you get.
ADF is how non digestable the hay is Ideally it will be below 31%
NDF gives you the best measurement for the fiber content. Ideally you want <45%. >55% and you need to feed more.
Lignin is the non digestable portion of the fiber. The lower the # the better the hay.
RFQ is a measure of how good the hay is. Perfect hay is 150 with 100 being average.
NFC is the sugars, fructan and startches. In IR horses you would like these values to be <18%.
Ca:P You want twice the amount of Ca than P but can go as high as 6:1
Ca:Mg you want no more than 2:1. (1.5:1 is a better goal)
DE is not a value on your report because how cows digest hay is different than horses. That will tell you how many Mcals (1,000 calories) are in a unit of hay. Important if you are trying to add weight to your horse.

Nothing jumps out at me as being out of line and a cause for concern or need to "fix". ADF and NDF are above the ideal but I'm in the camp that prefers a lesser quality hay and more of it than the picture perfect bale. Both hays will keep them warm in the winter.

Your Ca:P is 3.1:1 and 4.8:1 Perfect.
Your Ca:Mg is 3.1:1 and 3.5:1 both high. (so you look at a concentrate or vitamin/mineral blend that is high in Mg.) Flax is higher in Mg than Ca for starters.
NFC are 26 and 28% both high for the older horse that might be IR. That isn't helping him if he is in fact IR.
I would lean towards the higher protein hay for both. He needs the protein to build and maintain lean muscle mass and she need it to grow and mature.

In the real world, I wouldn't bat an eye at feeding either. It would be helpful to know the geldings IR status. You can always toss some roasted soybeans at them to up the protein and the gelding might benefit from a pre/probiotic to aid in breaking down the fiber content of the hay. If the horses share out of the slowfeeder, how can you possibly know how much each horse consumes? Don't over think it. You don't with your own diet.

The only thing missing is regional deficiencies. For me it's Cu. Most all my hay is low in Cu so that is one mineral I look for.

These basic 9 values plus the Cu are all I'm going to measure. Much more and you'll just get overwhelmed. The biggies for me are protein, RFQ and DE.

Hey I had those # in nice columns.
     
    08-09-2013, 03:18 PM
  #3
Green Broke
There's a very good explanation of how to interpret a hay analysis in the book "Feed Your Horse Like a Horse"

I think this link should take you right to it, if not, it starts on page 20 Feed Your Horse Like a Horse: Optimize Your Horse's Nutrition for a Lifetime ... - Ph. D. Juliet M. Getty - Google Books
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    08-09-2013, 03:57 PM
  #4
Super Moderator
Quote:
Originally Posted by verona1016    
There's a very good explanation of how to interpret a hay analysis in the book "Feed Your Horse Like a Horse"

I think this link should take you right to it, if not, it starts on page 20 Feed Your Horse Like a Horse: Optimize Your Horse's Nutrition for a Lifetime ... - Ph. D. Juliet M. Getty - Google Books
^^^well worth reading.

Where Equi-analytical is concerned:

What is the difference between the numbers under "As Sampled and the numbers under "Dry Matter". Why are the differences important?

For example, my 2013 hay:

Under AS SAMPLED
WSC = 10.2%
ESC = 4.9%
Non Fiber Carb. (NFC) = 13.2%


Under DRY MATTER
WSC = 10.9%
ESC = 5.3%
Non Fiber Carb. (NFC) = 14.%




I would like to understand what those slight differences in "As Sampled" and "Dry Matter" interpret to, when feeding and why they matter enough for E-A to present both of them


I don't know how the WSC interprets when compared to NSC values. All my previous hay tests had NSC values and they were well under 10%.

My previous hay always came from five miles up the road but he's retired.

My current hay comes from further north in the county. Even though it's only about 18 miles away, the soil is slightly different and so is their rainfall. They lay right in the storm paths, where we will often just sit and watch that storm go by saying "wait a minute we need some of that rain, too"-------------------------
     
    08-09-2013, 04:38 PM
  #5
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by walkinthewalk    
^^^well worth reading.


I would like to understand what those slight differences in "As Sampled" and "Dry Matter" interpret to, when feeding and why they matter enough for E-A to present both of them
As tested is probably at 20% moisture (Average hay), which would help if you wanted to see how much a horse would be getting on a limited-intake basis, whereas Dry Matter is if it was 0% moisture, which is often used as a basis. This is also what the 2% feeding rule is calculated by (so a 1000lb horse should be getting at least 12lb, not 10)
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    08-10-2013, 12:47 AM
  #6
Foal
Thank you LHP! That does help a lot. I told them this testing was for horses and this is just what they sent me, meh. I am still waiting on micro minerals test to come back to give me a better idea of what I need to supplement, but my area tends to be fairly high in iron, and I believe low in Copper.

I use the slow feed net because my gelding has a tendency to gorge himself and cause heaves from not taking his head out of the bale. I'm in an area that rarely uses small squares so they are hard to find without driving a long distance, even though I prefer them. Both kept weight on nicely last winter except my gelding losing muscle mass along his topline. I am contemplating putting him on Triple Crown Senior this winter to hopefully help.

Do you think this feed will compliment my hay? What would you recommend I supplement with to fill any gaps in my hay? It is hard to find a feed that does not add iron (which I know can aggravate IR) I did not get the actual test done because my vet said it wasn't really needed, he suspects if he is he is only borderline IR but I still would prefer to feed him like he were.
     
    08-10-2013, 08:29 AM
  #7
Super Moderator
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Smoke    
Thank you LHP! That does help a lot. I told them this testing was for horses and this is just what they sent me, meh. I am still waiting on micro minerals test to come back to give me a better idea of what I need to supplement, but my area tends to be fairly high in iron, and I believe low in Copper.

I use the slow feed net because my gelding has a tendency to gorge himself and cause heaves from not taking his head out of the bale. I'm in an area that rarely uses small squares so they are hard to find without driving a long distance, even though I prefer them. Both kept weight on nicely last winter except my gelding losing muscle mass along his topline. I am contemplating putting him on Triple Crown Senior this winter to hopefully help.

Do you think this feed will compliment my hay? What would you recommend I supplement with to fill any gaps in my hay? It is hard to find a feed that does not add iron (which I know can aggravate IR) I did not get the actual test done because my vet said it wasn't really needed, he suspects if he is he is only borderline IR but I still would prefer to feed him like he were.
You are correct, in that high iron equals low copper and low zinc.

While the TC Senior is not that bad in iron, keep in mind they have added iron so that brings the iron level higher than 175 ppm because there is naturally occurring iron in some of the other ingredients.

Also, the 4th named ingredient is cane molasses, along with soy hulls, soybean meal, soybean oil in there. "Soy Anything" is not good for metabolic horses

My non-metabolic Arab does fantastic on TC Senior but there is no way I would feed this to my IR horses

Kudos to your vet for wanting to feed your horse as if he's IR, even the blood tests show he isn't.

I can say from my experience and from what I've read on these forums that horses can have the early warning signs of IR, yet have blood tests come back normal for a couple years.

Feed white salt, as opposed to a mineral salt --- that has iron in it.

I have learned that feed stores in a large surrounding area (around me) all get their supplies from a gigundus warehouse called IVESCO.

IF your surrounding feed stores buy their products thru IVESCO, you have a lot of things available to you that your feed store isn't telling you about. They would have to special order things for you and most often the feed store owner is not willing to do that --- unless you put their feet to the fire and become insistent

Meaning--------------there are products out there safe for metabolic horses.

EquiPride is one. It is very expensive and really should be kept in temperature controlled conditions during the hot/humid months.

EquiPride is oat, corn AND soy-free. My horses weren't crazy about the taste but they ate it for about three years and finally refused to eat it no matter what I mixed with it.

McCauley's M-10 Balancer is also oat, corn, soy-free and low in iron. It's about 1/3 the cost of EquiPride but requires 16 ounces daily, as opposed to EquiPride requiring ten ounces daily.

McCauley'sŪ M10 Balancer

I am currently feeding the M-10 to two horses - one of whom have been formally diagnosed with IR. The second has early signs but his blood tests show he's normal.

You could also consider a concentrated vit/min supplement that is low in iron, and mix it with timothy pellets or soaked timothy cubes.

We have been taught to think our horse isn't getting enough of anything if we can't fill up a coffee can.

In this day and age, there are quite a few quality, concentrated supplements, that only require the horse be fed 1 - 2 ounces daily. Just have to read the labels carefully and also make sure there are no unnecessary fillers in the product that would dilute it

You might try feeding your "I think I'm starving" horse Remission by AniMed. Valley Vet carries it or that's another product your local feed store can get thru IVESCO -- if they use that warehouse.

Remission is not expensive and might help put his appetite back in control by regulating his insulin. MagRestore is magnesium malate but more expensive and more of it absorbs into the system. Successful use of these products depends on the horse. I would start with the least expensive first

Lastly, if your horse has lost muscle mass, some horses with metabolic issues can. One of mine did that. He is in his 20's so I feed him several pounds daily of well soaked timothy/alfalfa cubes; it has helped a lot. He is also on 23 acres of good sized Tennessee hills, 8 - 10 hours daily, which helps him maintain condition a lot better than if I tried to hand exercise him. He also lost a lot of weight and went from an air fern to a hard keeper.

Hope this helps more than it's confused you -- I skipped around quite a bit
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    08-10-2013, 08:54 AM
  #8
Foal
I have my filly on ADM (juniorglo) and my gelding gets just a handful of seniorglo to get sups in, but I no longer have a supplier in the area and the closest place that carries it is 2 hours away. I have tried getting the local feed store to get it in for me, but they refuse. I am stuck getting purina products only there, or I could go a bit further and get triple crown at another, but not ADM products.

I have had my gelding on Dynamite products for the past year and a half (Dynamite (vit sup) Excel (digestive catalyst) and Dyna-pro (pre/probiotic)) along with their free choice minerals and salt, but I ran out of everything but the minerals over 2 months ago and my supplier hasn't been able to get it for me. I have been trying to keep them on a forage program, and adding supplements as needed, which is why I chose ADM to begin with, I can get away with only feeding 1-2lbs instead of 6-10 of other feeds.

I will look into the remission though, thank you!
     
    08-10-2013, 10:02 AM
  #9
Super Moderator
It is getting more difficult by the day for many of us to get specialized products. Those of you who can get what you want, anytime you want, from your local dealers, don't ever take that for granted.

My local feed store flat out refused to order anything for me a year ago, so I started driving 38 miles to a feed store that would.

THENNNNN I learned from the "38 miles away" feed store that everyone in our district orders thru IVESCO. CO-Op stores might be the exception to that.

Imagine the astonishment on the faces of tack and feed shops when I asked "do you buy much of your inventory thru IVESCO??? Wowee-wow, faces when ashen, eyes bulged, you could've heard a pin drop.

I spend a LOT of money at one home town feed store and one home town tack shop. That means they have grudgingly agreed to order in whatever I need.

I will buy 3 - 4 bags of the McCauley's M-10, for example, and store it in the spare bedroom. I buy the Remission ahead and also the Probiotics, so they don't have to monkey fuss around with a special list every week or two.

That's why I wonder if your feed dealer buys thru IVESCO or some other mega stocked warehouse and you might be able to coerce your dealer to get in whatever you need.

I would just look the owner or manager dead in the eye and ask "who is the warehouser you get all your inventory from? Is it IVESCO? And keep your eyes well focused on theirs when you're asking

They will figure if you're smart enough to know to ask that question, they had better give you a straight up answer. Hopefully it will net you something positive.
     
    08-10-2013, 12:17 PM
  #10
Started
Quote:
Originally Posted by walkinthewalk    
^^^well worth reading.

Where Equi-analytical is concerned:

What is the difference between the numbers under "As Sampled and the numbers under "Dry Matter". Why are the differences important?

For example, my 2013 hay:

Under AS SAMPLED
WSC = 10.2%
ESC = 4.9%
Non Fiber Carb. (NFC) = 13.2%


Under DRY MATTER
WSC = 10.9%
ESC = 5.3%
Non Fiber Carb. (NFC) = 14.%




I would like to understand what those slight differences in "As Sampled" and "Dry Matter" interpret to, when feeding and why they matter enough for E-A to present both of them


I don't know how the WSC interprets when compared to NSC values. All my previous hay tests had NSC values and they were well under 10%.

My previous hay always came from five miles up the road but he's retired.

My current hay comes from further north in the county. Even though it's only about 18 miles away, the soil is slightly different and so is their rainfall. They lay right in the storm paths, where we will often just sit and watch that storm go by saying "wait a minute we need some of that rain, too"-------------------------
As samples is just that. As you pulled it out of the bale and sent it in for testing. Dry matter is that hay sample with all the water removed. Your values will go up in the DM results because the water (moisture) dilutes the nutrients.

There's an unspoken trick that farmers who sell their hay by the ton do. When baled with a high moisture content, you are in fact paying good $$ for the moisture. One ton of hay at 20% moisture has 400# of non nutrient water. If you drop that down to 13%, that's 260# and 140# more of the good stuff. Hay also continues to dry and cure as it ages. If you bought that ton of 20% hay and in 6 months, the moisture content has dropped to 15%, 100# of "hay" has evaporated. If you buy small bales, they tend to have a higher water content and dry more than large bales

They don't make the differentiation of CHO easy on any level.
NSC include sugar, starch and fructan
WSC include sugar and fructan
ESC is mostly the simple sugar.

I feed at least 50% alfalfa so because of the high fructan levels, ESC would be the most valuable for me.
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