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Help feeding thin senior horse that cannot chew hay

14K views 113 replies 21 participants last post by  Yogiwick 
#1 ·
Hi,
I have a couple of other threads out there on this horse.


I need feeding recommendations for my 23 yr old mare that cannot chew hay due to dental issues. Also has a history of ulcers and sand, gas, and impaction colic. She is underweight and has lost muscle mass.


I have tried beet pulp on several occasions in small amounts and she seems to have abdominal pain afterwards. Could be coincidence but I don't want to chance it. Have also tried some senior feeds but also seemed to have colic afterwards so I am not sure if coincidence or if I fed to much to soon.


I have been soaking 20lbs of Alfalfa/Bermuda complete feed hay replacer pellets with 1 cup of rice bran,and feeding that, 5 cups a feeding every hour to two hours a through out the day with the last feeding at about 10pm.
I also supplement with Allay by Adeptus (nutraceutical acid buffer with calcium, probiotics, licorice) twice a day and one scoop of electrolytes daily. Currently she is on 1/4 tube of Ulcer Guard once a day.
She has a white salt block that she uses after eating each time. Going through about 1 lb block of salt a week.


She is the kind of horse that will eat everything that is in front of her until it is gone and then start begging for more. That is why I cannot feed to much at a time. I have tried to slow her down with rocks etc in her pan but she starts picking them up so I took them out.


She is stalled right now and I am keeping her blanketed if the weather is under 60f and I check her constantly to make sure she doesn't get to hot.


She is not gaining weight.


Any suggestions? Anything I should be adding? Do the weight gain powders work? I have some cool calories and some other weight gainer, but am leery to use them.


Thank you.
 
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#2 ·
You are doing everything right, IMO:)

I don't like to say this but ----- when this happened with my Arab (he didn't have any back teeth, ulcer issues, also a picky eater), I did the same thing ---- soaked-to-mush hay cubes & rice bran, plus his needed supplements and fed him 3-4 times daily.

Toward his end time, the vet gave him a pretty thorough hands on physical. She felt he had internal tumors, somewhere in the back. By then he was 29 and nothing could have been done, even if surgery would have been possible.

I am sorry to bring something like that up but tumors are possibility. Has your vet given any input?
 
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#3 ·
Have you had her seen by a vet? Going through that much salt a week plus still not gaining weight after all that high-calorie fiber is worrying. I would absolutely want to see blood work done to check her thyroid, even though hyper-thyroid in horses is rare it does still happen, and I would also want to check her kidney function because of the salt consumption, as well as levels of calcium and phosphorous if you are feeding a lot of alfalfa.

If everything is OK, I might try her out on an EPSM diet. 1 lb of fat for every 1,000 lbs of body weight is about 2 cups of oil per day. You can increase the rice bran oil, or use Cocosoya, or even grocery-store brand Mazola corn oil. They do have high-fat feeds meant for horses with metabolic issues, so you could mix it with that.
 
#4 ·
Hi, yes she has seen the vet. Vet says at this point she is old. I will get another vet out to look at her but I can't right now. Last blood work was 7 months ago and she was slightly anemic. I need to recheck it.


I know this isn't good and I am just dealing with what is in front of me now. Not the past or the future. But I am a realist. Will stay positive and optimistic on the outside for now. Have to at least do what I can for her.


Thank you for the replies. I appreciate the input and advice.
 
#6 ·
That is a "free" question you should be able to call your vet and ask, since the vet knows her history.

My thought is to let her keep the salt, as long as she is drinking plenty of water and does not have diarrhea.

My insulin resistant horse has always eaten more salt than the other horses, even long before he was diagnosed as IR.

Again, get your vet's input before removing the salt:)

Is she getting vitamin/mineral supplements via some sort of feed, ration balancer, or something like Platinum Performance? If not, that might be a reason why she is eating so much salt.
 
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#9 ·
At 2 pounds per 100 pounds of desired weight, she may not be getting quite enough feed. I agree with using a senior feed. She needs something with vitamins and minerals. She has to have salt. Maybe you could use half senior feed and half of the hay pellets you are using.

I am currently taking care of 5 seniors that range in age from 27 - 35. It is a very expensive project. All but the oldest will eat some hay. I keep it in front of them 24/7. I also give a locally made senior feed, a mineral mix, and a salt block. They all look good except the 35 year old and he looks like crap. I agonize over whether I should go on and put him down...................
 
#10 ·
Thank you all for the advice. I will leave the salt block with her for now since she has plenty of water and is drinking well. I will look into a senior feed that will be easy to digest for her and try to slowly start adding it to the hay pellets.


Just weight taped her and she is 915lbs. She is a 15"2 horse and used to be 1133. Most recently when she was in shape she was 1050 I think. It just shocks me how she seemed to suddenly go from a robust healthy looking horse to how she looks now. It's just so sad.


Thank you again for all the help and I will look into what was recommended.
 
#11 ·
I think your idea of adding the senior feed to what you are doing sounds good. Just gradually build it up.

My ancient pony just won't each much no matter how good it tastes. He still seems to enjoy hanging out with his friends. He is not lame. And he likes hugs. So I guess he'll stay around a bit longer.

Good luck.
 
#12 · (Edited)
You mention dental problems.....

When though was the last time her teeth were checked, thoroughly checked by a dentist?
When they were last checked did the person doing the checking put their arm into the mouth cavity to almost the human elbow???
I wonder if her sudden loss and picky eating could be to sharp hooks cutting her inside cheek....

I have not personally used this but have seen rescues who have scored a "1", needing to be brought back so slowly do well with this product...
Pennwoods brand Body Builder 4000
I know some who also feed it to their horses daily and when it was started a huge difference in about 10 days was seen.
It supposedly can be fed to all livestock, canines and kitty cats..

Do be very cautious you not over-do the supplements giving this, that or something else...
Things need to be kept in balance or you defeat your purpose of helping and create issues....
:runninghorse2:....
 
#13 ·
I am using the Complete Senior with a scoop of weight gain morning and night (a 2 gallon bucket) and a I'm giving a 2 gallon bucket of alfalfa pellets soaked in water. It really helps my guy. Also when measuring your horse make sure you take into account the atropine of old muscles...
 
#14 ·
Have you tried a chopped hay such as Standlee products?
Premium Chopped Alfalfa/Timothy | Standlee Forage
Our feed store has several different types, including a cheaper local brand of chopped hay. It was tolerated very well by a couple of seniors in our barn that were 30ish. They don't need to really chew it.
It seems like something you could put out in a bin during the night so your horse could keep eating. No need to divide it into smaller portions.

I agree with the oil, it is a good way to add some concentrated calories. Horses digest fat very easily.
 
#15 ·
You mention dental problems.....

When though was the last time her teeth were checked, thoroughly checked by a dentist? On Thanksgiving night 11/24, when she had suspected impaction colic, although I don't think it was as she was passing manure.
When they were last checked did the person doing the checking put their arm into the mouth cavity to almost the human elbow???No. She just floated the incisors. She thought that would bring the rest of the teethe back into wear so she could eat again..
I wonder if her sudden loss and picky eating could be to sharp hooks cutting her inside cheek....I had her teeth floated on November 12. That was the start of all this. She hasn't been able to chew her hay since. She isn't picky about eating. She wants to eat constantly. Has always had a great appetite. She will eat just about anything and is so hungry. I just cannot leave her with allot of food because she doesn't stop eating until it is all gone.

I have not personally used this but have seen rescues who have scored a "1", needing to be brought back so slowly do well with this product...
Pennwoods brand Body Builder 4000
I know some who also feed it to their horses daily and when it was started a huge difference in about 10 days was seen. I will look into that.
It supposedly can be fed to all livestock, canines and kitty cats..

Do be very cautious you not over-do the supplements giving this, that or something else...
Things need to be kept in balance or you defeat your purpose of helping and create issues....
I am trying not to.
:runninghorse2:....
She is getting Alfalfa/Bermuda Hay replacement pellets that have added vitamins and minerals. I also give her rice bran that has flax seed in it and omega 3 and a few other things I will have to look up when I go back in the am.


I did get her an extruded feed today. It is supposed to be easier for them to digest etc. Fed it to her tonight. She ate it well. Think maybe I fed to much. She did lay down in her stall at an unusual time for her, but she seemed fine and did eat her hay pellets about 30 minutes later. I have one of the trainers who I trust and lives on site, checking in on her later tonight and feeding her as well.


Thank you for the advice and help.



 
#16 ·
Pennwoods body builder is a fat and protein supplement. It would help any horse that was lacking those building blocks in their regular diet.

I choose Triple crown Senior because it is one of the few senior diets that are HIGH fat and high protein. It is more than palatable and horses think it fanatastic. I use it for all my rescues once they get off a refeeding program.

They need high protein and fats to help building muscle and replace/rebuild top line. If the top line is lacking, you must feed it into them first!!

I haven't ever heard of just fixing the incisors and the rest of the mouth will follow... If the backs have hooks, they need to be floated. They won't just wear down.
 
#17 · (Edited)
I see a potential RED FLAG..........

This all started the day of a teeth floating???
Me, I would have the "teeth floater" return or someone else immediately come and re-check what damage was caused and how it can be fixed...

Any horse I have ever owned or took care of after having a float done has maybe a day or two of adjustment time and then there were no issues.
Now, some of those horses were old some were young and some were middle-age..
At 23 years of age she could have some issues of chewing....
It is common as our horses get into their "advanced" years that teeth needing attention can be 2x a year event..
So.....call who ever it is you trust to check that mouth thoroughly for a problem.
If doing a float you do the entire mouth not just whack the incisors.
All parts of the mouth need to be carefully checked. Doing a small part and not balancing the rest of the mouth alignment could be your problem..

Now as for feed....
Anytime you introduce new feed you do it slowly....in your case very slowly.
Being your horse is appearing gut temperamental and you feed as often as you do... I would not feed more than 1 cup of your new feed source added to the already existing mix per feeding... Increase amounts slowly every few days and every feeding.
So, I just went looking for feeding information about those type of pellets from many manufacturers.
All gave a suggested amount of 2 pounds fed per 100 pounds of animal. So on a 1000 pound animal that is 20 pounds fed "dry" weight. That is a maintenance level.
So...your horse has lost weight, considerable weight is what you say. Quick math gives me a loss of about 200 hundred pounds...
So, to gain an once of weight you need to feed more than the horse needs to just exist...
You need to feed more of those pellets. You do weigh them dry, then add water to soften them yes?
So...again quick math.... I would be feeding an additional 5 pounds per day of those pellets, before moistening to work the weight gain issue.
They also have near "0" fat in them and fat is your friend.
Your horse needs protein in their diet, yes... they also need fat...cool calories.

So, you also now added a extruded feed.
What brand and what feed exactly? What are the protein, fat and fiber ratios?

Knowing this might enable people to offer you some really sound advice about supplements to compliment your feed choice.
You again need to weigh this and recognize that mass/volume is not how it is fed.
Extruded feeds are also many times not as dense in calories either so more needs fed.

I do wonder if the way you describe the horse always begging if she is hungry, just plain hungry.
Have you ever tried to give her a hay-net, a slow-feed net filled with a nice hay how she would do?
Slow-feed nets do slow them down in how fast they consume allowing the digestion process to trickle feed the gut....it gives the roughage horses indeed must have.

I have a horse who can consume 15+ pounds of hay in about an hour if just fed...
I feed him in a slow-feed net and suddenly he has his hay lasting 3 - 4 hours. Better for his digestion and keeps him busy.
It also keeps him out of my other horses hay he would steal....:icon_rolleyes:


So, some more questions and thoughts from me....
It sounds like you are on the right track just need some tweaking of the plan to reach success!
:wink:
:runninghorse2:....

 
#18 ·
No, feeding hay pellets with a vitamin/min supplement is bare minimum for an easy keeper. On hay. And even then you need to be super aware of their nutrition needs. I honestly prefer a ration balanced compared to the above feed option for proper nutrition.

Many senior feeds can skimp on protein and fat and fiber. And are not made as a total complete diet.

All feeds must be transitioned over to slowly over 7-10 days.
 
#19 ·
Hi,




Nov. 12 Vet did a float. and an exam. Exam was for recent ear pinning and biting at air when girthing up or touching abdomen. Vet thought behavioral.
That evening after the float she couldn't chew hay so I started feeding hay pellets soaked first


Nov. 17 Vet came out and rechecked her.
Vet witnessed her eating hay and thought she was fine. I showed the vet the huge pieces of quid in her feeder


Nov. 22 Right rear foot non weight bearing and stabbing into ground hopping. Gave Bute and called farrier. I assumed it was an abscess. Farrier out in afternoon and she was fine.


Nov. 24 Vet came out for emergency call. She was staggering a bit in the back end, switching weight from one rear foot to another and swaying a bit. No gut sounds on the right and diminished on the left. HR70, RR50, TP 99.5, MM lite pk, CRT 2+s
I hand walked for 1 1/2 hours prior to Vet arriving and at one point she fell into a very deep gopher hole with both front legs.


Vet exam found HR 50, RR12, Vet checked manure and found undigested hay and suspected an impaction. Vet sedated and then floated the incisor teethe thinking that since she had not done them before, maybe they were the problem. Then she was tubed and given a small bucket of water via tube and 1/2 gallon of oil. She could not get any more oil in her because her stomach was full. Also gave injectable Bannamine.


Vet thought the shifting of weight etc. was caused by pain in the feet from the glue on shoes she wears. Vet thought she was lame in the Left rear more than the right.


Nov. 25 Still not able to eat hay. Moved her into a barn stall with padded floor at trainers advice. Found some areas in her pasture where she might have been having trouble getting up. Once in stall she would stand with back against a wall. Continued Alfalfa/ Bermuda Complete feed hay replacer pellets Protein 14% Have to check on the rest. Feeding as much as I could every hour to a total of abour 20+lbs a day. Giving Allay supplement. Giving electrolytes.


Continued as about


Nov. 27 added rice bran to feedings.


Nov. 28 Body work person came out and did full massage and gentle stretching etc. Felt that it was a pain and weakness in the lumbar back SI joint and hip area.


Nov. 29 continued increasing Pelleted feed and rice bran.


Nov.30 Chiropractor came out and noticed rope walking and also felt a general weakness and atrophy in lumbar region and felt that this is all from the back/spine and to hand walk and keep in barn for now. She felt she would recover from this but to go slow with her. Didn't want me to do any stretches etc. as she would lose her balance with a foot picked up.


Dec. 1 Continued increasing rice bran and pellets.


Dec. 2 same as above but added extruded feed (Kahoots EX brand) Weighing out about 2 lbs of feed for start.


Dec. 3 Her manure is looking better in morning no longer has mucus and is now formed. Fed as above with the pellets and hand walked and then she looked bad again. Seemed painful and lethargic. I am waiting for someone right now to see if I can get money to have a different vet come out.


She is so thin. She is eating allot but honestly except for the extruded feed it looks the same as it did going in. I can count every rib and she looks emaciated to me. It is like she suddenly aged 10 years.


Thank you for the input and advice. Just wanted to clear up a few things here to make sure everyone knew what was going on. Thank you again.
 
#20 ·
I think there is allot more going on with her than it seems. A combination of a bunch of things. If I think about it, which I do 24/7 now, there have been so many signs something was wrong.


I am pretty sure at this point that she cannot digest the food she is given and it is just going right through her. I wonder about sand, I wonder about tumors, I wonder about so many things it could be but it is making me crazy and I just need to get another vet to look at her. I may not get any answers but I can't sit back and watch my horse starve to death. This is horrible.
 
#22 ·
How much grain is she getting? In lbs? How many feedings?

No bloodwork has been done yet?

Deworming? Ulcers? Biting at belly when further/losing condition is pretty typical ulcer signs, and most vets would lean that way vs behavioral.

Behavioral brain tumor stereotypic signs can happen but are on the rarer realm... rather than typical signs.
 
#23 ·
So, couldn't get a vet out today. I did talk to one on the phone that has seen her before for sand colic. He feels it is probably that again and ulcers. I am supposed to give one cup of phsylium daily for 3 days and ranitidine and banamine.


I am feeding her 25lbs of alfalfa Bermuda hay replacer pellets soaked. 5lbs of extruded feed, 4 cups of rice bran a day. She is fed every hour or two from 6:00am till 10:30 pm. I feed about 3 lbs or so a feeding. She also gets electrolytes and Allay for ulcers.


Am going to try to get the vet out on Monday since it didn't work for him to come out today.


I had a check for parasites done a month ago and it was negative. I do not deworm her regularly.


Thanks again
 
#101 ·
Ranitidine is slower and needs to be given 3x a day compared to omeprazole (ulcergard/gastrogard) in horses. I have had faster turn around with omeprazole though it is more expensive. But ranitidine often doesn't work.

Case study, can't pull up all of them easily on this stupid phone.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/16313043/
I have have seen good results with omeprazol, maybe switching to that is an option?
 
#26 ·
You keep mentioning sand colic and now mucous was in her poop....

Has anyone done a simple sand test of her poop?
Testing Your Horse for sand in its stomach
Have you treated her with sand clear or a like product?
If her gut is coated in sand she can't absorb nutrients no matter what or how much she is fed....
Feeding pellets alone is not enough roughage her body needs to function although I understand the dilemma you find yourself in...

I agree there is much going on...a combination of issues presenting in a relatively short period of time.
:runninghorse2:....
 
#27 ·
Yes. Want them to do a full panel. Blood work was done 7 months ago and was fairly normal except for slight anemia. Allot has changed since then.


I cannot get ulcergaurd right now. I had one tube and accidently gave entire contents. I don't know. It is hard with all the bills I have had lately. I will try again. At least if I could give 1/4 tube a day would be better than nothing. I did do the full 30 day course with it also 7 or 8 months ago, using a full tube a day for 7 days then 1/4 tube a day for 30 days. It didn't do much. But maybe it helped and I couldn't tell.


My fear is that there is so much sand in her gut that she cannot absorb the needed nutrients. She is to old for surgery and from what I have read there isn't much else that works to remove sand. I have always been so careful to not let her eat sand but I don't know how she was cared for in the 18 years prior to my owning her.


Thanks again for all the help.
 
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