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Rice bran to add fat to diet

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    03-04-2013, 11:15 PM
  #21
Green Broke
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldhorselady    

When I started lunge work with her the following spring, I noticed her slapping her hind feet in the trot. She seemed very stiff. If she was to canter in the round pen, she would seem to start forming a coma shape where her hind end would start over-swinging towards the center, or her legs would twist up and she would crowhop. When she would run around in the arena at a canter and would slow down to a trot, she would do it like she had rear peg legs and it was not smooth. If she slowed down from the canter to stop...lets say at a fence line....her hind legs would tumble underneath her like a sliding stop and just get tangled.


She reminds me of the scarecrow from the Wizard of Oz.....always happy go lucky with the occassional uncoordination with her hind legs. Her hind end seems 'loosey goosey' and she is fidgety when standing, though she can do it. But she is the type of horse that is always trying to be a part of what you are doing, so I thought she was maybe just moving around, like being part of the conversation, not just standing there zoning out. There are times when I see her having to shift her weight to balance better for something, like....me picking up her feet, her scratching her face with her hind hoof, her reaching around to her belly to get a really good itch, but not everytime either.

I've had another vet look at her recently who diagnosed her with stringhalt after watching her at a trot in the roundpen for 5 minutes and pulling on her tail. I've also had chiros, massage therapist and trainers all watch her in person with them just shaking their heads. Some people thought she was trying to gait in the trot. (Ha ha. My horse is gaited and had a difficult time trotting or doing a proper gait.)


The bolded sections are things my mare did/does as well.

My mare cannot canter, even at liberty. She had muscle wasting of her back and hindquarters. She could not engage her hindquarters for anything. She even had a tough time climbing hills. She sometimes couldn't pick up her back feet due to soreness/discomfort. She exhibited stringhault like symptoms occasionally. I get what you mean by the "slapping" of feet at the trot. Been there, bought the tee-shirt. She had an overall stiff quality to her movement I just put up to being "normal" for her.

In better news, Baby Girl improved amazingly with proper diet. She can ingage her hindquarters better, is gaining a topline/hindquarter muscles, can comfortably climb hills, and her movement is generally more free. No more stringhalt or "heavy steps."

And no more azoturia, thank God. Her first attack nearly killed her.
     
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    03-04-2013, 11:28 PM
  #22
Started
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brighteyes    
The bolded sections are things my mare did/does as well.

My mare cannot canter, even at liberty. She had muscle wasting of her back and hindquarters. She could not engage her hindquarters for anything. She even had a tough time climbing hills. She sometimes couldn't pick up her back feet due to soreness/discomfort. She exhibited stringhault like symptoms occasionally. I get what you mean by the "slapping" of feet at the trot. Been there, bought the tee-shirt. She had an overall stiff quality to her movement I just put up to being "normal" for her.

In better news, Baby Girl improved amazingly with proper diet. She can ingage her hindquarters better, is gaining a topline/hindquarter muscles, can comfortably climb hills, and her movement is generally more free. No more stringhalt or "heavy steps."

And no more azoturia, thank God. Her first attack nearly killed her.
OMG, I'm not alone?????!!!! I seriously feel sometimes like I'm losing it. I am willing to accept her for what she is too, but I couldn't even determine what that was so I could figure out her limitations. I seriously hope I have the same success as you with Baby Girl. I am actually hoping for the EPSM results to be positive, so I can put an end to the search.

How many months before you noticed some type of change? I'm sure it was coincidence...but very weird still....Snickers is always a sweet pocket pony...the other day she literally walked away from me when I was trying to pet her. She did it for two days, the third day a little back to normal and now today, she is back to her loving self. I know it could be a change in her since she is almost four and a teenager, but she has never acted like that before. If I didn't know better, it really hurt my feelings.

Here is one of the emails from Dr. Valentine after she viewed video:

Lisa, I just checked out the you tube walk/trot video and this looks just like so many EPSM horses I have worked with. It has served me well to say “anything unexplained about the hind end of a draft related horse is EPSM until proven otherwise.” She has that slightly stiff “swing from the hip with little hock or stifle bend” that is very common in EPSM horses. At a trot she looks “pony gaited.”

So, no matter what the test results I definitely recommend diet change. I suspect that you will find you have more horse than you thought, with more energy (I hope this is OK!), and I’m betting you’ll be eventually able to canter along as well as walk and trot.

Definitely let me know. And keep videotaping as that is a great way to see changes.

Beth V

So between you and Dr. V.....I hope she improves.

Cool....the Cool Cal is 98% veg oil!
     
    03-04-2013, 11:39 PM
  #23
Started
Here's diet information Dr. Valentine sent me too. Cool Cal is on there too.

EPSM (PSSM, EPSSM) DIETS
Designed by Dr. Beth Valentine with assistance from Drs. Harold (Skip) Hintz, Bob Van Saun, Don Kapper, and Kent Thompson

Goals: To provide no more than 15% total daily calories from starch and sugar, and at least 20-25% of total daily calories from fat

Forage:

Either grass or legume hay (such as alfalfa) can be fed. Alfalfa hay does not have a high enough starch content to be a concern.

Grain hays such as oat hay and barley hay with remaining seed heads should be avoided.

The amount of forage is not critical - it can be varied depending on whether the horse needs to gain or lose weight. Just do not feed less than 1% of the horse’s body weight in forage per day.
Lush spring pasture will be higher in starch and sugar than summer grass, and the amount of dietary fat may need to be increased during this time.

Vitamins and minerals:

Vitamin E: At least 1 IU vitamin E per lb of horse per day is important for all horses, especially those not on alfalfa products or green grass for much of the year. You cannot hurt a horse with extra vitamin E.

Selenium: About 1-2 mg selenium per 1000 lbs of horse per day is essential in areas that are selenium deficient. Selenium can be toxic at high levels, though, so be aware of all sources of selenium in your horse’s diet, and ask your veterinarian to have blood tested for selenium levels if there is any question of selenium deficiency or excess.

“Broad spectrum” vitamins and minerals: Horses on fat supplemented diets often will not be eating the manufacturers recommended amounts of fortified commercial concentrated feeds per day. If forage quality is good, most vitamins and minerals will be adequately supplied by forage. For horses on lesser quality forage, hard working horses, breeding horses, and growing horses, addition of a daily vitamin and mineral supplement is important.

Other supplements: Hoof supplements, joint supplements, etc. are not a problem when feeding EPSM horses.

Fat: EPSM horses need at least 1 lb of fat per 1000 lbs of horse per day.

Start with small amounts, such as 1/4 cup oil per feeding, and increase by about 1/4 cup every few days. Use the general rule that two cups of oil = 1 pint = l lb.

Treats for EPSM horses: Most EPSM horses are fine with carrots and apples in moderation. Avoid treats with grain or sugar. My horses like Kellogg’s Cracklin Oat Bran, which has about 20% calories from fat.


Specific Diets for EPSM Horses

* At the time of this writing there is no feed high enough in fat to provide the proper calorie ratios to EPSM horses without an additional fat source

In general, aim to feed no more than 5-6 lbs of any feed other than a pure forage based feed per 1000 lbs of horse per day.

Feed the minimum amount of feed in the bucket that gets the horse to eat the maximum amount of daily fat while maintaining good weight.

If it takes a small amount of something “sweet” (molasses, carrots and apples, apple juice, peppermint flavoring, a handful of oats or sweet feed, etc.) to get your horse to eat the right amount of added oil early on, this is not a problem. You can aim to decrease or eliminate this small amount of starch and sugar later.




Examples of very low starch and sugar feeds:

Alfalfa pellets
Other hay pellets
Alfalfa cubes - soak in water when adding oil
Beet pulp, low molasses content - soak in water
Complete feeds - meant to replace hay if needed
Dengie or chaff products
Chopped hay products


Examples of low starch and sugar feeds*:

*In general, feeds higher in protein and fat will be lower in starch and sugar. Ingredients such as soy hulls, beet pulp, bran, wheat brans, and wheat middlings are relatively low in starch and sugar.

Below are examples of low starch and sugar feeds, there are many others. If in doubt, contact the company and ask about starch and sugar content. Look for feeds no more than 33% starch and sugar.

If you can see grains in the product it is likely too high in starch and sugar for an EPSM horse.

Purina Strategy (14% protein – NOT 12% protein)
Nutrena Compete
Nutrena Safe Choice
Blue Seal Hunter, Demand, Vintage Gold
Senior feeds
LMF Stage 1
LMF Complete
Equi-Pro Carb-Safe
Platform horse feeds
Triple Crown Senior, Complete, Growth
Triple Crown Lite
Triple Crown Low Starch
Purina WellSolve L/S and W/C

Examples of higher fat feeds:

These are examples of feeds that allow addition of less added fat. Most companies suggest using these only as an addition to other feed. For EPSM horses, feed these alone along with good quality forage or a daily vitamin and mineral supplement:

Kent Feeds Omegatin (20% fat)
Nutrena Empower (22% fat)
Farmer’s Cooperative High Fat Low Carb (20% fat)
Moorglo (15% fat)
Rice bran, powdered (20% fat)
Buckeye Ultimate Finish (25% fat)
Nutrena Farr XTN (12% fat)
Re-Leve (about 10% fat)
Purina Ultium (12% fat)
Purina Amplify (30% fat supplement)

Calculate amounts of fat fed from these products by multiplying lbs fed per day by the percentage of fat. For example, 3 lbs of Ultimate Finish is 3 x 0.25 = 0.75 lb of fat.

Feeds with 20% or more fat can be supplemented with rice bran (20% fat) to provide additional fat. All other feeds require addition of a 100% fat source.

100% fat supplements:
Any salad type vegetable oil, such as soy, canola, corn, safflower, cottonseed, etc. Cocosoya and wheat germ oil are also fine, just more expensive.

Cool Calories dry fat product, by Milk Specialties - 800-323-5424 ext.1156, ask for Catherine Gerardi.

Cool Calories dry fat product, by Performance Horse Nutrition, Weiser, ID 208-549-2323.

Ultimate Finish 100, Buckeye Feeds
     
    03-04-2013, 11:49 PM
  #24
Started
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brighteyes    
I watched a couple videos of Snickers. Her hind leg lameness does strongly resemble my mare's "unexplained" lameness/soreness we later realized was PSSM related . My mare's lameness shifted from one back leg to another, and would sometimes vanish and reappear "randomly." Does Snicker's lameness ever shift? What other signs of she showing?
Her lameness doesn't seem to shift from one side to the other. When she shows symptoms, you can see how that right back side goes wonky. But there are times she definitely looks better than others.
     
    03-04-2013, 11:57 PM
  #25
Green Broke
Not alone at all!


PSSM isn't that bad. It isn't great either, but in the scheme of problems our horses may have it isn't a life ruiner. Before Baby Girl's major attack, she was an endurance horse in the works. We had just moved up from 35s to 50/60 mile weekends. Baby Girl could somehow manage 35s with (unknown, untreated) PSSM, but conditioning for and doing 50s was too much. She started coming out stiff, having metabolic issues, lameness, and all those other signs. I noticed muscle wasting, mistook for it simple thinness, and increased her grain. The increased grain was the final straw before she tied up during a routine training ride.

She was out for four months recovering and getting her diet straight. I noticed subtle changes in her movement after one month, and the changes became more noticeable in two months. I mostly saw changes in her walk. It was swingy and free. She used her butt. Eventually, I noticed her trot freeing up. Her exercise tolerance increased. So much energy! She could manage conditioning rides without grumpiness and exhaustion. Three months and she was beginning to canter (badly) at liberty. She was gaiting like a proper gaited horse. Every month, her movement just got more swingy. It's almost something you have to see to describe. A year later, I can finally say she has a balanced, ground covering trot.

As far as limitations go... I haven't found any yet. Baby Girl is better than she ever was. She blazed through one moderate 50 and one uber tough 50 winter of 2012 like a machine. We're fully booked for 2013. Hoping to win a national championship.


Sometimes horses have rough days. Sometimes Baby Girl is grumpy and doesn't want to talk to me either! Teenagers!


I hope Snickers improves too! Most PSSM horses respond excellently to the diet. BG has actually never been tested for PSSM; she was diagnosted via outward signs and response to treatment. My vet said it would be a waste of money to send off hair or biopsy with results like that. (Baby Girl probably has type 2 anyway, which doesn't show up on a genetic test. She's a SSH; not a normal breed to be affected.)

That's the same info that got me started on my diet journey. Dr. V is wonderful and helped me a lot.
     
    03-05-2013, 12:02 AM
  #26
Started
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brighteyes    
Not alone at all!


I hope Snickers improves too! Most PSSM horses respond excellently to the diet. BG has actually never been tested for PSSM; she was diagnosted via outward signs and response to treatment. My vet said it would be a waste of money to send off hair with results like that.

That's the same info that got me started on my diet journey. Dr. V is wonderful and helped me a lot.
Wow, what a great story. I know that if the diet proves to work, that it doesn't matter what the tests say. I think I just wanted to maybe feel that approval of diagnosis siince I've been dealing with it since the day I bought her and every person that looks at her just scratch their heads. If the test is neg, they will still get the same diet. I just ordered my Cool Cal on Amazon! Now onward! Thanks again!
     
    03-05-2013, 12:06 AM
  #27
Green Broke
Absolutely no problem! I love to help. If you have any problems or anything, shoot me a message! Tell me how Snickers like her Cool Calories, and how she's doing. Keep me updated!
     
    03-05-2013, 12:13 AM
  #28
Started
I'm not sure I will be able to find the Legends on this coast.....
     
    03-05-2013, 12:21 AM
  #29
Yearling
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldhorselady    

The ricebran would be a lot for sure. I thought it was 5lbs of ricebran per cup of oil! Snickers is getting two cups of oil and Belle is getting 4 cups of oil....that would be a lot of ricebran.
It's just math. 2 Cups of oil is 1# of oil. If you're substituting RB which is 20% fat, than you would have to feed 5# of RB to equal the fat (1# : .2 = 5#). You would substitute 1# of oil with 1# CC 100 (expensive!). I've tried Soweena (pig feed fat supplement) but even the least picky eater turned his nose up. I think it ran $.45/#. How fast did you get them up to the 2# and 4# of oil? Another trick to slip more oil into the diet is to just drizzle it over the hay. Obviously can't do it if they free choice or share hay. How much product are you mixing the oil in? I can hide 1 C oil with 3# senior, 2# BP and 1 gal water easily.
     
    03-05-2013, 12:28 AM
  #30
Green Broke
Yeah... Legends is probably a southern thang. XD

I've heard good things about Triple Crown Lite as a base grain. It's around 10% NSC. If you can't find that, Triple Crown Low Starch is around 14% NSC with higher fat from rice bran and flax seed.

Also, Cool Cals is like a grainy powder. I recommend adding it to your base grain and wetting it lightly so it will stick.
     

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