All horse slaughter closed down in Mexico and Canada today - Page 7 - The Horse Forum
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post #61 of 107 Old 10-16-2012, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by natisha View Post
Every horse slaughtered by American (North& South) means should have someone crying for them.
But they don't, and wishing it were true doesn't make it so.

If the roles were reversed and the NORM was slaughter, how would you like if it you were told by others that you must send your horses to slaughter or you're cruel and unfeeling? That's where my disconnect with the antis occurs.

Just because you or I won't send our horses to slaughter doesn't mean we get to tell others what they can or can't do with their own horses, as long as it's legal.

If it's not your horse you don't get to make decisions about its welfare. That's quite simply the bottom line. Antis want to take something that's perfectly legal and make it illegal simply because they think they have some kind of moral high ground, and know better than everyone else.

It's NOT about tainted meat or worrying about poisoning different cultures, although the antis will rally behind that convenient smokescreen. It's all about trying to force your moral standards onto the rest of the population, and that's something I simply can't agree with.

If we're to have the freedom to make choices about what happens to our animals, then we have to give the same rights to everyone else.
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post #62 of 107 Old 10-16-2012, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by AlexS View Post
That's an issue with not enough checks being made in the process, not enough ID on horses etc.

And frankly it could happen now, they just ship further.

To me the theft argument would be much like saying that no car repair shops should exist because many mechanics are crooks.
It certainly could happen now, and probably does to an extent. However it would only INCREASE as the ease of turning over the horse would increase.

For a comparison:
Places that have more options for selling copper have more copper related theft.

They need to have some sort of quarantine period and some means of tracking down stolen horses. Until then, I stand firm that I will not support slaughter until our companion animals are protected.

God help the person that stole my horse and carted him to slaughter, because I surely wouldn't be doing nice things.
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post #63 of 107 Old 10-16-2012, 09:49 AM
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You'd have to go much deeper with everything for the big change. Mass producing animals and animal products in itself is apparently needed but bad. They need the antibiotics as preventative to grow healthy enough in this stressful environment. Be it chickens, pigs or cows in feedlots. Ever been on a pigfarm, the big, commercial ones? In Europe beef is, for the most part, produced much differently than here. Dairy cows are bred to beef bulls, resulting calves are raised mainly indoors until they have market weight. Way more costly than here. Then add the world market...grain from Russia and the US and Canada can be produced way cheaper than in Europe. And even with shipping cost it's still cheaper. That's what's making the subsidies necessary, or so the EU thinks.
Then the big centralized slaughter facilities.
I remember well in Germany, every little town had at least one butchershop where farmers would take their animals. They all disappeared. And so did the horse butchers. Now horsemeat is considered poor people food.
As for responsible long as there are people who prefer a mare over a gelding because she can produce a foal if not rideable not more " to get some of the money back", as I've been told when trying to sell an OTTB gelding, you'll have these unwanted horses. And they have to go somewhere. Then add the cultures who think any male animal can not be neutered.
The majority of breeders have stopped breeding, leaving their mares empty. And with time the market will regulate itself. With time.....
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post #64 of 107 Old 10-16-2012, 10:19 AM
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An enforced passport system with micro chipping would massively reduce the horse theft issues. people in the UK objected to it at first then had to accept it and now see it as normal.
We have dog licences in the US (we dont in the UK) so why not some proof of ownership for horses with a central database?
Slaughter yards would have to be more strictly supervised and regulated

More and more responsible breeders of good quality horses are cutting back or giving up altogether so its likely at some point in 5 or 6 years time if the economy lifts there will actually be a shortage of good horses
Sadly its the irresponsible ones who arent, they produce low end horses on as small a budget as possible so dont care if they sell for meat money - its still a profit and it doesn't matter how bad a conformation or temperament they have or if they have never been handled
And then you get the ones who think its 'so cute' to have a little herd all of their own running free and natural and untouched by human they are some sort of saints doing this massive big favour to the horse world. Right up until the point that the money runs out or they move on to some other fantasy that appeals more.
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post #65 of 107 Old 10-16-2012, 01:40 PM
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The dog and cat licenses also are not enforced... There isn't enough man power/money to enforce them...

Where is the man power and the money to pay that man power going to come from to license and enforce licensing of all the horses out there? You're still going to have people with unlicensed horses, just like with dogs and cats. Living in the county, none of my dogs or cats are licensed, nor do they have to be.
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post #66 of 107 Old 10-16-2012, 07:23 PM
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This is going to be a little off topic but I wanted to share a few facts(that I know) about beef production, antibiotics and growth enhancing practices.

It has been a long time since I went through a Beef Checkoff Quality Assurance program, but I thought I would pass along some information, take it for what it is worth.

For those that don't know, Beef Checkoff is a program available for beef producers to learn about the proper use of antibiotics and growth enhancing practices. It teaches what drugs to use, proper dosage and how to administer them properly for the most effectiveness and safety. Long gone are the days when you used run down the catwalk and jab everything in the tenderloin to give shots while in the leadup to the head catch. Now everything is given in the neck either IM or subcu., depending on the drug/vaccination as not to bruise or abcess.

All animals must go through a 30 day withdrawal period where it is not given any antibiotics. THIS is where those YouTube videos come from with downed cattle. Usually those are "chronics" that seem like they are always sick, they must go through a withdrawal period of at least 30 days, the only thing keeping them alive was the antibiotics. Then couple that with a truck ride to a kill plant. Stressed animals get sick, stress a sick one and it will die. Just as a side note, anything done with cattle can stress them, moving them to another pasture, loading them on a truck...whatever, but a responsible producer will use the lowest stress methods available.

Also mass treating with antibiotics in the feedlot is highly discouraged. As far as I know sometimes they will do a pen of cattle that were shipped in looking poor and sickly, but not the whole feedyard. I don't see that very cost effective.
That is what pen riders are for. It is their responsibility to check each pen for cattle that are getting sick, get them out and up to the hospital for treatment. Much more cost effective to treat one steer rather than mass treating them all.

Consumers worry about growth hormones, the enviromental impact of cattle but still want their McDonalds Big Mack. Don't know how to fix that one unfortunately...
If USDA/FDA were to ban all use of growth enhancing technologies. The US would have to produce an additional 10 MILLION head of cattle a year, we would need 17 million more acres for grazing and feed growth and 138 Billion more gallons of water for those cattle to meet consumer demands. There needs to be some advancements and compromise.

Every time laws and restrictions are made that impact agriculture production it drives food costs up. Everyone suffers. The beef industry is well aware of the concerns of its consumers and is constantly working on producing healthy, sustainable beef. It can be a little difficult when there is a huge disconnect between consumers and where the beef actually comes from unfortunately. I wish more people were educated on how our world is fed. Farmers and ranchers who make up less than 10% of the population feed us all.

The thought of keeping a "passport" for every steer or heifer that passed through my hands seems ridiculous, again the cost will be driven up of beef. The cost to produce it which will be passed on down to the line. That would be fine and dandy for someone who raises 100 head in the back pastures. But how would one propose to do so when the majority of yearlings that we got came from say AZ, perhaps there were 20,000 head wintered there as weanlings, then divided up and sent to various ranches up north to NV, ID, OR and MT for the summer. Then to make drugs only available to be administered by vet, not logical at all. So my option is to either drive him to a set of pens and tire/stress him more so a vet can get to him, rope and load him in a trailer to a set of pens again so a vet can doctor him, or rope him, tie him down and wait two hours while the vet drives from town or at that time and expense it seems you would be better off shooting him and taking the loss. If anyone ever thinks that vets should be the only ones to administer drugs to cattle for record keeping needs to work on a ranch for a day or two.

Honestly, If the US plans to make horse meat an industry(but not on the same scale as beef obviously)they just need to get the funding for testing the horse meat and regulate it like the beef, treat it the same. But that's just my opinion.
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post #67 of 107 Old 10-16-2012, 07:54 PM
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Thank you COWCHICK77. If all sick cattle had to be tended by a vet who signed their passport, we'd have a lot of cattle being shot because in many places a vet could drive all day just getting to and from the sick cow. Heck, a visit from the vet 25 miles away to pour oil down my horse one night cost me $400. That is pretty close to her current market value, too...
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post #68 of 107 Old 10-16-2012, 08:12 PM
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LOL! you summed up what I said in a page in two sentences...

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post #69 of 107 Old 10-16-2012, 08:39 PM
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Didn't they discover Mad Cow disease in England?
Our beef is very regulated here our food is probably safer than any other country.
Hving lived in Europe, Israel turkey and visited the far east where open markets are and were the norm i assure you that with the requirement for refrigiration, storage, and displays here in the US I felt kind of wierd seeing meat eggs and cheses displayed with the regualtion that are standard here in the US. Shalom
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post #70 of 107 Old 10-16-2012, 09:12 PM
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Yes, The UK was highly impacted with over 100 deaths.

BSE, unfortunately has a very long incubation period, I think up to 8 years! Also they seemed to trace it back to cows that were fed bone meal made from, well, dead cows and sheep.

AS far as I know there has not been a vaccination produced to prevent BSE, but of course the use of animal parts to be used for feeding cattle have been eliminated.
In the mean time, strict controls have been placed on the butchering beef has been placed that no spinal cord/ brain parts are sold or placed with boxed beef. BSE can be found within all of beef but it is concentrated through the nervous system and seems to be the issue with humans contracting the disease.

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