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Population Reduction

13K views 92 replies 13 participants last post by  drafthorse01 
#1 ·
I think we should all do our part to reduce the population of horses.

Why?

-Whether your against slaughter or not (in America at least) it is banned, probably for good.. or a really long time. The overpopulated horses have nowhere to go, and now more than ever we need to think of them first and do our part.
-The horse market is in a slump right now. Basic economics and the law of supply and demand tell us if we reduce the numbers in the future, the market will slowly pick up.
-We are responsible as people to make the world a better place for future generations. As equestrians, we should do the same for our horses.

Where it starts:

-Leaving colts with their male parts, when they clearly aren't breeding material. Everyone likes to think their horse is the best, and they may have a lot of strengths... But if their strengths don't outweigh their weaknesses, they probably aren't breeding material. Not to mention, in the wild survival of the fittest takes over. There is ONE breeding stallion per herd (at least usually, sometimes some of the younger stallions probably sneak around). Stallions will fight to death for the control of a herd, the winner breeds all the mares.

-The same can be said for mares, if your mare is not truly breeding quality.. She shouldn't be bred. As much as you love her, its not going to change the fact that her babies might not be wanted by other people. If that is the case, and you don't have the time/money to take care of them: you are contributing needlessly to the overpopulation of horses. The wild also takes care of this in a way. First many mares may be infertile, in the wild they don't get pregnant. Thanks to technological advancement, we can increase a mare's chances of fertility. Secondly, foals who are born weak and cannot keep up with the herd usually die young. In the care of people, we do everything we can to ensure that they live.

I am not saying people should stop breeding. Nor am I saying that we shouldn't use technology to increase chances of impregnating mares, or that if our foal is born premature or weak we should let it die.

What I am saying is that because of human intervention, there is no longer a population control on horses (much like dogs and cats), so we MUST do our part to ensure that we can provide them the best oppurtunities to succeed, get loving homes, and if applicable be of competition status.

Where does it start?

Responsible breeding. Be honest with yourself. If your colt has poor conformation, a terrible/overly violent attitude, or isn't marketable within its breed (such as doesn't win at recognized shows) then maybe you should geld. It is my firm belief that only outstanding representations of their breed or great champions of their discipline (notice I am including crossbreds in here) should be kept stallions. The majority of colts should be gelded, there is nothing wrong with geldings, there should be nothing to fear in gelding a colt.

The same for your mare, broodmares should pass on the exceptional qualities of both sire and dam. They should also be exceptional representations of their breed or outstandingly talented in a given discipline... But even then, it doesn't garuntee that they will be "great" broodmares. If after two or three foals they don't seem to create outstanding or highly marketable foals, you should consider keeping them as companion/competition/pleasure horses.

The best way to do this, if you are an unproven breeder (If your foals sell out the shelves, keep doing what your doing.. its obviously something correct) is to ask the opinions of fellow horseman- especially those who know more about the breed or discipline of your choice than you, and those whose opinion you highly respect. They may bring out points, good or bad, that you haven't thought about. You may change your mind or your stallion.

The most important thing, is once the horse is bred and born no matter how beautiful, ugly, talented or average the horse is: It is your responsibility to ensure its marketability. That means training it. That means starting from a young age. (not necessarily saddling a two year old, but read on.) Get it used to clippers, bathing, leading, standing on cross-ties, stable manners, loading, standing for vet and farrier, grooms, etc. All of this can be done before the horse starts any real training and increase the horse's value.
Consider the future of the horse.. Just because you don't clip your horses, doesn't mean it shouldn't stand and be clipped for a future owner. Also squash bad behavior early (bucking, rearing, laying down in tack, etc.) before it becomes a full blown problem.. I think you know where I am going with this.

I think breeding responsibly is the best and only practical solution to slowing the exponential population growth. Just think of your horses' futures before you breed and after you breed.


Also proven breeders can do their part by considering reducing their foal crops.. Even if its just by one or two foals.. In a way this can be beneficial to you, again I bring in the law of supply and demand. If you lower your supplies, in theory the demand will go up. (So if your horses truly are of spectacular quality, having less will boost their prices.)

Stallion owners can also do their part. You can approve and limit the amount of outside mares you allow breedings to. If you are a good judge of quality (assuming so, since your stallion is of upmost quality if he is kept a stallion..) then don't allow breedings to mares who don't seem like they will produce outstanding babies. (Ask for pictures, pedigrees, foal references, etc.) If you don't want to get that technical, than just limit the number of outside mares. Again the law of supply and demand dictates that your stallion will be more valuable (provided he truly is a quality animal) as a breeding stallion, especially if he throws spectacular babies.

I think I've made my point. Any other suggestions for controlling population growth?
 
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#2 ·
^Goldurnit, drop_your_reins, there's nothing there to argue over. You disappoint me.

Well, here, I'll add a tidbit, instead:

Too often I hear "Well, Miss Sassy has a crooked leg/ is untrainable/ can't walk right/ doesn't like people/ is blind in both eyes so we can't ride her, so therefore we decided to make her a broodmare." Now, tell me, how does this make sense?
 
#3 ·
Now, DYR, nobody's going to read this and comment unless we make it interesting....gotta get the message out somehow, so, uh....let's make this exciting.

How do you propose to make people follow the above guidelines, eh? Because we all know that people are ignorant, arrogant, and greedy. I say that there's no possible way to enforce good breeding techniques, and that we still need an "outlet" for unwanted horses.....unless you want to keep sending them to Mexico!

Should I have called you a bad word, too? Hmmmm....
 
#5 ·
Well said DYR :) I had a filly that was sold to us prior to learing she was HYPP pos. We were ignorant first time buyers. The breeder who sold her to us told us that "at least she could be used as a brood mare". She finally died from it (see Fancys story in memorials) But anyway, I couldn't believe someone would breed a horse like that. I'm not sure if the individual horse registrys should be responsible for inforcing breeding laws if they were inacted or what the answer is. Because as bubba said there will always be ignorance, arrogance and greed involved.
 
#6 ·
Drop_your_reins I completely agree with you and all those people that breed the "perfect horse" that no one wants are the reason slaughter houses should be legalized and that is why I believe in horse slaughter, it isn't a bad thing when its helping society and horse life in itself.
 
#7 ·
I am sorry but I absolutely don't agree with you. Have you ever done a search on "Horse slaughter"? Do you have any idea what the shipping of horses for slaughter is like, or what the poor animals face when they get to the slaughter house. The sheer brutality of the whole process is horrendous. I saw one video where a stock truck arrived with a horses hoof stuck through one of those openings in the side of it. They cut its foot off so that they could get it out, then hauled the poor animal out with a chain. Horses are not fed or watered for sometimes several days at a time on the road as it affects the schedule. The people (and I use the term loosely) in the slaughterhouse, hit them, scream at them, all in an effort to keep the line moving. The bolt gun used to stun them isn't always effective. The target is moving, so instead of one good shot where it does what it is supposed to do, it might take as many as four shots, each time causing only more pain and terror. And horse slaughter is banned in most of the states, but apparently not all. So the extra horses that you see standing in auction yards all over the country are going to be subjected to long trips, without food, without water. And there are no laws to protect them. They are victims.

They are victims of everyones need to let their mare have one baby because they are so cute. They are victims of people who turn that sweet mare that has obvious problems that preclude her from being a working horse, into a broodmare. Next time you drive by a field full of babies frolicking in the sunshine, ask yourself how many of them will wind up on the killing floor.

I have two mares that have never been bred. They never will be and I moved from one side of the country to the other so that I could buy a piece of property that had fields for them to wander in until the end of their days. People like me are horse lovers, we love them enough not to bring more into the world.
 
#8 ·
Deb said:
I have two mares that have never been bred. They never will be and I moved from one side of the country to the other so that I could buy a piece of property that had fields for them to wander in until the end of their days. People like me are horse lovers, we love them enough not to bring more into the world.
Good for you. But on one cares about what /you/ have or what /you/ do. Its what other people do. If your such a /horse lover/ why would you rather let a horse starve to death in a pasture? Or die slowly from a painfull illness? Then send it to slaughter and have it die to end that pain? I'd rather have my horse go though a sever ammount of pain for a day or two. Then pro-long that pain till the ends of his days, thank you very much. People wont listen to breeding regulations. What about large throughbred farms that make tons off money off their "foal crops". What about PMU farms? There is too much money involved. Rememberits not what people should do that matters. Its what they do
 
#9 ·
Good for you. But on one cares about what /you/ have or what /you/ do. Its what other people do. If your such a /horse lover/ why would you rather let a horse starve to death in a pasture? Or die slowly from a painfull illness? Then send it to slaughter and have it die to end that pain? I'd rather have my horse go though a sever ammount of pain for a day or two. Then pro-long that pain till the ends of his days, thank you very much. People wont listen to breeding regulations. What about large throughbred farms that make tons off money off their "foal crops". What about PMU farms? There is too much money involved. Rememberits not what people should do that matters. Its what they do

Deb
Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 8:

Hmm, I can't figure out if you are angry at me, or what? And did I mention anything about letting a horse starve in a pasture? I don't think so. Nor did I suggest that horses should suffer pain until the end of their days. And are you for PMU farms or against it? Personally, I am a menopausal woman and made the decision not to take estrogen treatments, because I didn't want to support the PMU industry which is a crime against horses for all kinds of reasons. I get the hot flashes and the whole nine yards but that's fine by me.

If every animal that went to slaughter, was treated kindly and with respect, and not beaten or starved, or....well you get my drift, during that process, I would have less of a problem with it. But the facts are that they do endure all of these things on their way out of this world. And if one of my girls was sick and in pain, I most assuredly would not send her to slaughter "to end that pain". What a horrible thing to do to a friend. She would have a little visit from the vet after a good meal of her favourite things and it would be peaceful and quiet around her at that last moment on this good earth.

I think my last statement says it all, nobody should be bringing more horses into the world for the sake of "having just one baby around, cause they're so cute, and we want that experience once".

You seem very angry at me for mentioning that we moved across the country for the sake of my horses. Why is that? May I ask, do you board your horse because you can't afford to buy your own place for it? If so, I am sorry for that, because I'm sure you'd rather have a different situation . I hope that someday things will change for you in that regard if that is your wish. I feel very fortunate that my girls have the lives that they have and I wish that was the case for all horses.

The problem is that people in general seem to believe that animals are a commodity to be used (and yes abused) at will and tossed aside when they are no longer convenient or useful. I don't feel that way and hope that by being involved in discussions like this and giving my opinion and yes, mentioning what we've done in our lives as evidence to back up that opinion, that more folks will begin to realize that we all have a responsibility to take care of our animals.
 
#10 ·
Slaughter is a very sensitive issue for me. I understand where this topic is coming from. Here are questions that always seems to pop into my head:

What is "Breedable"? What is "Good Enough"? What is "Perfect"?

I don't agree with Slaughters being legalized but there needs to be a firmer hand and much more education in the breeding field. 8)

Same goes for those that breed Top-Quality horses. They are bringing more horses into the world too and I don't think it should just be the "backyard breeders". :wink:

I think that artificial insemination and such is going a little out of line. As horse_luver has said...don't mess with Mother Nature. Sometimes, in cases I think it's sick. But that's jut me. :oops: Having a mare pregnant with a foal at her side as well? I just don't agree.

I don't mind people leaving colts with their male parts actually. As long as they are rightfully cared for and all...and kept away from mares...it's ok I guess.

I don't know... :?: :)
 
#11 ·
I'm just going to reply to the most recent post, because honestly I'm not in the mood to tackle the rest.

"Breedable/Good Enough/Perfect:"

A horse that has good conformation (actually, great conformation), a good mind, no genetic diseases that it could pass on to its offspring, is in healthy shape and physically able to reproduce without straining itself, has something desirable to add to the market, does not add to a niche that is already overpopulated, is owned by people who are financially able and educated enough to support it and its offspring, is registered, has good bloodlines, has proven itself in the show ring, has in fact won awards in said show ring (and not just at the 4H level....we're talking the real deal), etc.

Yes, quality horses are slightly overpopulated. Read the certain niches being filled and surplus horses--mainly in the halter industry and TB racing. But for the most part (say, 75%), it's junk horses and mediocre horses that are filling up kill pens in Mexico.

Backyard breeders need to stop breeding. Period. Big production operations need to cut back their foal crop drastically.

And there's no excuse to not geld colts. If they aren't high quality animals being used for breeding, they need to be cut, because eventually, they'll jump the neighbor's fence and breed his mini mare. Or hurt themselves trying. Not to mention, stallions are dangerous and unhappy horses. Nature tells them that they need to reproduce--they've got that constant internal drive. But if they act even remotely like a boy, they get in trouble. How is that fair? They're constantly nervous and on edge....because that's how they're programmed. They have trouble keeping weight on. Geld them, and they calm down. They're healthier, happier, and saner.
 
#13 ·
The difference between backyard breeders and Top-Quality breeders, is that the top breeders, breed for a reason, and when those top horses are at the top, its pretty slim to none a 500,000 dollar horse is going to slaughter. Now when you don't even mean to breed a horse. Well then that horse might as well have slaughter written on its forehead. I realized that for those of us that don't backyard breed, or send horses to slaughter, shouldn't bother with slaughter. We won't end it nor should we. So why not just let the people that basically breed specifically for slaughter breed for those reasons, considering they are unstoppable, and invincible when it comes to slaughter horse breeding.
 
#14 ·
Quoted: (The difference between backyard breeders and Top-Quality breeders, is that the top breeders, breed for a reason, and when those top horses are at the top, its pretty slim to none a 500,000 dollar horse is going to slaughter. Now when you don't even mean to breed a horse. Well then that horse might as well have slaughter written on its forehead. I realized that for those of us that don't backyard breed, or send horses to slaughter, shouldn't bother with slaughter. We won't end it nor should we. So why not just let the people that basically breed specifically for slaughter breed for those reasons, considering they are unstoppable, and invincible when it comes to slaughter horse breeding.)


Backyard breeders breed for a reason too, babies are cute, I want a baby from my horse, my horse has such a great personality....
but are those really good reasons to add one more horse to the world which often treats them so unkindly.

Would you then use the same rational when it comes to the overpopulation of dogs or cats? After all, puppy mills are unstoppable, and we wouldn't do it, but they are invincible so what the heck. Maybe we shouldn't even try to stop them for those reasons. When something is horrible, civilized people have an obligation to say something, because to say nothing is to give approval. Even the law says that if you know of a crime being committed and do nothing to prevent it, you are as guilty as the perpetrator.
 
#15 ·
I have another one for you. Did you know that the Chinese breed a little animal called a racoon dog for fur. They stun it by beating it over the head, then skin it alive. Should we just allow it to continue, or should we vote with our wallets and not buy anything with fur that comes from China. Because they breed for a purpose, because they are unstoppable, because they are invincible....

If only people realized that all animals, including horses have feelings, and suffer fear, and sadness, and experience joy, and if the level of a beings intelligence wasn't a determining factor for whether or not they have worth, then maybe the whole animal slaughter issue would have a chance of becoming a thing of the long ago, primitive past.

By the way, if you don't believe me about the racoon dog thing, do a search on Chinese fur farms. I will warn you though, the video you will find is horrifying and is not for the sensitive.
 
#16 ·
Deb said:
Quoted: (The difference between backyard breeders and Top-Quality breeders, is that the top breeders, breed for a reason, and when those top horses are at the top, its pretty slim to none a 500,000 dollar horse is going to slaughter. Now when you don't even mean to breed a horse. Well then that horse might as well have slaughter written on its forehead. I realized that for those of us that don't backyard breed, or send horses to slaughter, shouldn't bother with slaughter. We won't end it nor should we. So why not just let the people that basically breed specifically for slaughter breed for those reasons, considering they are unstoppable, and invincible when it comes to slaughter horse breeding.)


Backyard breeders breed for a reason too, babies are cute, I want a baby from my horse, my horse has such a great personality....
but are those really good reasons to add one more horse to the world which often treats them so unkindly.

Would you then use the same rational when it comes to the overpopulation of dogs or cats? After all, puppy mills are unstoppable, and we wouldn't do it, but they are invincible so what the heck. Maybe we shouldn't even try to stop them for those reasons. When something is horrible, civilized people have an obligation to say something, because to say nothing is to give approval. Even the law says that if you know of a crime being committed and do nothing to prevent it, you are as guilty as the perpetrator.


People who breed for a reason aren't back yard breeders. Some one who breeds deliberately to see how cute the baby will be and then get rid of it, well thats a little different. I'm saying people who have horses just to be high and mighty enough to say they have a horse and send them all in the pasture because they don't care a pig and a goose about them or what comes from them, well they are the unstoppable ones. Because all those unwanted babies, starving, highly diseased, abused, yadda yadda, horses are ones who go to slaughter. They are the ones no one wants to waste money on. Why stop that? You alone can't stop horses from breeding, its a natural thing when they are put in a pasture together. Don't count on slaughter getting taken away or stopped. It's a necessary thing, horses are over-populated, especially the ones no one wants. What are we supposed to do with the ones not wanted? Let them starve, pass on diseases? I think not. Shame on anyone who believes that to be right. Shame on the people who take on horses when they know they will never ever have the chances to afford it and support it but still breed it thus sending the mare and the baby to slaughter. Shame on them. You can't stop it though. And with the Chinese breeding things specifically for fur, well its going to happen. Now what about those people that don't give a dog and a cat about what happened to those dogs as long as they're getting top quality fur? You cannot stop it nor should we try because the population of certain things, such as horses and deer are over populated. Its just like deer, people hunt them too? Now why doesn't anyone make a big deal about hunting? People have veal. You know those baby cows in dog houses. They're bred specifically for a reason and there is no stopping that. And why should we?
 
#17 ·
I gotta admit that I am stymied by your fatalistic attitude. You seem to think that there is no point in trying to stop horrible things. If everyone in the world had that attitude, then no one would have tried to stop Hitler from killing Jews and anyone else who didn't fit his idea of the perfect race. No one would try to stop pedophiles, because that is just what they do and why try to stop it. No one would try to stop puppy mills so why waste the money on the SPCA. People who abuse their horses will never stop even if you take the horse away, they'll just get another one later and abuse it, so why try to help the one that is there in front of you. I am saddened quite frankly because I think that there are lots of people out there who are like you seem to be, you just don't care.

We are judged by how we treat the weakest among us, how we treat the voiceless, and if we don't care, what does that say about us? If we don't feel anguish for the pain of others, what does that say about us? What does it take to make the uncaring, feel again?
 
#18 ·
The reason that is proposed here that slaughter be allowed to go on is that it is the only way to prevent horse neglect. Where do you think race horses go when they are not fast enough? Some may get sold and rehabbed for pleasure use, but apparently 15% of the animals that show up on the kill floor are 2-3 year old Thoroughbreds. When they do round ups of wild horses, some get adopted, but where do you think the rest go?

(http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9806E7D91F3EF936A15751C0A9649C8B63&fta=y)

What do you think happens to all the broodmares that these people "who breed for a reason" do when the mares are no longer productive? I understand your concerns about neglected horses. But maybe instead of killing the horses, we as a people, should focus on eliminating the overproduction of animals in general, whether they be dogs, cats, horses, pet birds, etc.

If the racing industry folds tomorrow, that will be how many fewer horses being produced to find that one champion. If every person who breeds (including the ones on the breeding threads on this forum) for selfish reasons, yes I did use the "S" word, didn't, how many fewer horses would be hauled away to slaughter. If every woman going through menopause were to accept natures changes in her body, instead of relying on horse pee to avoid perspiring, how many fewer horses would be loaded onto trucks for the final ride. Say nothing, and the pain continues.
 
#19 ·
Exaclty Deb. What do you think happenes to those mares?

I know Harlee extremely well. I can tell you this, she does care, she cares enough to realize that slaughter and such is needed in this world. She cares enough to understand that no matter how many people complain and throw a fit about the poor horses dieing everyday isn't going to do anything. Its going to continue. Harlee does care, more then you know.

So back to those mares. If there is no slaughter what is going to happen to them. Slaughter was their escape from the pain of starving to death in a pasture. So your saying we should let that happen? What about all the PMU mares that get sent to slaughter? They will be thrown out to pasture to die. The problem is that people don't care i agree with you on that. But there are more people in this world that don't care, more then do. Its a money making business. Thats all there is too it. There is way too much money involved for anything to be done. Politics. If you understand the politics of it all, it would make more sense. Its like the tobacco companies. Many people are trying to stop that, but again too much money involved. Even if they did stop the sales of tobacco and made it illegal a huge black market would come about. So really its a vicious circle. Mindless people breed mindless horses then come up with mindless crap. The people don't care anymore so they send them to slaughter. To me, slaughter is an escape from dieing slowly in a pasture.

If you forget about one thing, and focus on another, the thing you forgot about will come up and bite you in the butt. If we stop slaughter and focus on overpopulation. You will see an increase in neglected horses and such, more horses dying on the sides of the roads. Its a horrible thing but its true. Overpopulation is a problem yes, but not the only problem.

You cannot compare slaughter to Hitler. There is just no comparison. Hitler destoryed the Jews for power and gain. Yes thousands of horses a killed a day, but its legal and for a reason, meat. Also its an escape from abuse and neglect. Yes maybe that 500,000 horse is going to slaughter. Ever think that is run-down can no longer move, or has a diease. Or maybe did you think that their owner wasn't going to take care of them anyways so they saved them from starving in a pasture by sending them to slaughter.

You said the problem is people don't care. I always feel like im repeating myself on here Its not a matter of what people should do, its what they do. And what they do is not care. Want to know what the real problem is? People who don't care, don't care, and will never care. So the horses that arn't cared for, need an escape. I feel that slaughter is that escape.
 
#20 ·
This logic would be fine, if the only horses that went to slaughter were old, dying, skinny, malnourished or abandoned horses.
But young, healthy, top quality horses are going to slaughter.
And neglected horses are still dying in fields across the USA.

:?
 
#21 ·
The point of mentioning Hitler, was to show how important it is to take a stand against something, to fight against it, and only in doing so, will the evil be stopped. But if you have the attitude that "Oh well, we can't stop it, it's too powerful, so why bother" just allows the evil an arena in which to continue. Slavery in America was the same way. Someone had to take a stand against it, call it the evil that it was, and fight against it. So every battle must be a dual pronged attack. In the case of Hitler, you a)help the Jews escape, and b) you fight Hitler on his own ground. In the case of slavery, you a) give the slaves a way to escape to a new life and b) have a civil war that begins to change what is now becoming unnacceptable. In the case of horses (or any animal for that matter) you a) educate people on the horror of overpopulation and the violence of slaughterhouses and b) do whatever you can to provide rescue homes for the animals that you can save and c) you make it extremely difficult for people to make money off these innocent lives or dump their unwanted horses and one of the ways to do this is ending the wholesale slaughter.

You say Hitler destroyed the Jews for power and gain. That is not so far removed from why killers go around the country, buying horses at auctions and from racing barns, and... for power and gain, both coming in the form of money. And whats more, you mention that the reason it is legal is for meat. And you are right to a degree. But I would submit to you, that by ceasing to consume meat, you not only help the animals that used to be on your menu, but you also help the environment. The consumption of meat products is bad for the environment. The congregation of huge numbers of animals in feedlots around the world, adds tremendously to the ground water pollution problems wherever they are housed. Cattle in particular add to the methane in the environment which contributes to the breakdown of the ozone layer that protects our world. The amount of grain foods and water that must go into cattle to bring these animals to marketable size, would feed so many of the worlds starving masses. And what is more, the consumption of meat products is bad for your personal health. Animal fat contributes to high cholestrol, obesity, heart disease, kidney disease, and on and on.

Nobody wants horses to starve to death in a field. But to just throw up your hands and say oh well, can't change nothin', will do exactly that, change nothing. As so called civilized peoples, our goal should be to grow and improve and open up to compassion for all beings. So yes, we should be trying to stop wholesale, mindless horse (animal) slaughter, and wholesale, mindless horse(animal) breeding. Attack on as many fronts as you can think of and eventually the war gets won.
 
#22 ·
And by the way, just in case you are dead set on eating meat and are trusting that the FDA and meat inspectors everywhere are taking care of you, think about this.

I have an aunt and uncle, very nice folks, you would like them I'm sure, and they raise cattle for the market. A few years ago, in the spring, they had a couple young calves die unexpectedly. Then they noticed a couple more beginning to exhibit the same early signs. The vet had not been able to cure the first pair, couldn't even say what it was. So rather than take a chance on loosing the income from that years calves, they shipped the whole lot of them, before they started showing any signs of problems. Common practice all over North America when farmers are trying to protect their bottom line. I wonder how many of those calves were carrying the bacteria that killed that first pair, and how many of you ate a burger from one of them? What's more, do a search on rendered pets, and you will find out a whole lot more than you want to know about what goes into the chicken food, and cattle feed, and pet food, that we buy each and every day. And you know the old saying "you are what you eat".

As far as I can see, we all need to work to change the mindset of people and this comes about in so many ways, on so many fronts. But the start is in each one of us.
 
#24 ·
I agree with you on that one delete. chickens will eat other chickens, fish eat other fish, pigs eat anything. So whats wrong with eatting them? I know weird logic :lol:
 
#25 ·
Fish eat coral, cat eat's fish, dog eat's cat, bear eats dog.

Its how it works. Im certain the nautral process of consuming other animals isn't bad for the enviroment. If it is. The rest of the animal cycle is messed up.
_________________
.Delete.

You are right, in the natural process, predator animals eating prey animals isn't bad for the environment. But the feedlots and row upon row of chicken sheds, hundreds of pigs in barns and fish pens aren't the natural process. And all of those cattle in the feedlots add concentrated feces and urine to the ground and it leaches into the ground water. Same with the waste of chickens, pigs and the salmon in fish pens on the Pacific coastline. As far as human health is concerned, eating meat is not a natural process either, we are simply accustomed to it but our physiology is more like a herbivores than a predators. Check this out: http://www.celestialhealing.net/physicalveg3.htm

[Choosing a nonvegetarian lifestyle has a significant health and medical cost. The total direct medical costs in the United States attributable to meat consumption were estimated to be $30-60 billion a year, based upon the higher prevalence of hypertension, heart disease, cancer, diabetes, gallstones, obesity and food-borne illness among omnivores compared with vegetarians (2). ] from The American Dietetic Association.

The point of all this is that the consumption of horses is not normal, a necessity, nor is it acceptable just because some people choose to do it. So from that perspective, speaking out against it is good, not only for horses, but for those who eat them. But at the same time, it is necessary to educate people so that they begin to realize that breeding and adding horses to the pool of unwanted animals. And yes, you are right, animals should not be neglected and left to starve in fields since that appears to be a major concern of some of you, but that happens anyway even though the slaughter of horses is still going on.

I want to take a second here to thank you all for the politeness that I have encountered on this thread. Sometimes when people are looking at an issue from different perspectives, it can get a little heated, but I think that we've done an amazing job of getting along don't you?
 
#26 ·
Fish eat coral, cat eat's fish, dog eat's cat, bear eats dog.

Its how it works. Im certain the nautral process of consuming other animals isn't bad for the enviroment. If it is. The rest of the animal cycle is messed up.
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You are right, in the natural process, predator animals eating prey animals isn't bad for the environment. But the feedlots and row upon row of chicken sheds, hundreds of pigs in barns and fish pens aren't the natural process. And all of those cattle in the feedlots add concentrated feces and urine to the ground and it leaches into the ground water. Same with the waste of chickens, pigs and the salmon in fish pens on the Pacific coastline. As far as human health is concerned, eating meat is not a natural process either, we are simply accustomed to it but our physiology is more like a herbivores than a predators. Check this out: http://www.celestialhealing.net/physicalveg3.htm

[Choosing a nonvegetarian lifestyle has a significant health and medical cost. The total direct medical costs in the United States attributable to meat consumption were estimated to be $30-60 billion a year, based upon the higher prevalence of hypertension, heart disease, cancer, diabetes, gallstones, obesity and food-borne illness among omnivores compared with vegetarians (2). ] from The American Dietetic Association.

The point of all this is that the consumption of horses is not normal, a necessity, nor is it acceptable just because some people choose to do it. So from that perspective, speaking out against it is good, not only for horses, but for those who eat them. But at the same time, it is necessary to educate people so that they begin to realize that breeding and adding horses to the pool of unwanted animals isn't acceptable. And yes, you are right, animals should not be neglected and left to starve in fields since that appears to be a major concern of some of you, but that happens anyway even though the slaughter of horses is still going on.

I want to take a second here to thank you all for the politeness that I have encountered on this thread. Sometimes when people are looking at an issue from different perspectives, it can get a little heated, but I think that we've done an amazing job of getting along don't you?
 
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