Are you pro-slaughter? POLL - Page 23

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Are you pro-slaughter? POLL

This is a discussion on Are you pro-slaughter? POLL within the Horse Protection forums, part of the Horse Resources category

View Poll Results: Are you pro-slaughter
I am pro-slaughter 161 66.53%
I am anti-slaughter 69 28.51%
I don't know yet 12 4.96%
Voters: 242. You may not vote on this poll

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    02-16-2012, 04:35 PM
And since these new guidelines are being passed in europe requiring much more health documentation on the horses being slaughtered you will see a decrease in the market for meat. It will work its way out somehow. All I know is I plan on having my horses put down humanely here on my property and buried because I feel like that is my responsibility as their owner...and I guess in the big scheme of things that's all I can do to effect the world. Make sure I am handling my own business.
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    02-16-2012, 05:02 PM
Totally agree with you, Herdbound!!
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    02-16-2012, 05:13 PM

What the heck is your point PH? Yes horses were being transported out of the US and slaughtered in Canada or Mexico before the US houses shut down (was it thousands? Hundreds? Regardless, horses brought over the canadian border for slaughter are included in the totals I provided), but the point is that after the shut down, TENS OF THOUSANDS MORE were and are being shipped across the borders for slaughter! Horses that could be staying in the US to at least be slaughtered without enduring the stress of extremely lengthy transport.

And why are you worried that your minis could go to slaughter? Are they not trained? Not in good condition? Not well behaved? Do you not have a plan for them should something happen to you or your financial stability? If you had to sell are you not willing to do your due diligence to find the best possible home instead of taking them to an auction and hoping for the best?

Faye need not worry about her horse's odds of ending up in slaughter not just because he is a quality animal, but because she puts in the effort required to make him marketable. A trained, well behaved horse in good condition commands a higher value, and thus is more likely to stay off the meat wagon. On top of that, if you put the effort and research into finding a good quality home, the odds are greater that it will *actually* be a good quality home.

That being said, there is always the risk of things going bad. That is a risk you take when you sell a horse - if you don't want to take it, then you don't sell it. Eliminating slaughter has done nothing to eliminate that risk! There is still the chance (how small that chance is is up to you!) that the horse will be starved, neglected, abused...slaughter is only ONE possibility of the things that could happen.

My position has nothing to do with what kind of horses go to slaughter - all kinds go, young or old, healthy or sick, big or small, doesn't matter. The people who owned them often are the consistent factor - even a high dollar show horse with a bright future can end up heading for slaughter if their owner didn't care enough to market them better.

Slaughter is not an unfortunate necessity because of low value horses but because of low value people. It's easy to ban the outlet, but it's a bandaid and horses have been no better off - it's the horse owners themselves who have to change, and many just won't. You cannot restrict the heck out of horse ownership to avoid these types of owners unless you make extremely difficult for the responsible ones as well. Why should we have to pay for the actions of less responsible people? Heck, this problem hasn't even been solved with people and their own CHILDREN. Human rights go both ways - this is unfortunately one of them. Look at the breeding board on here - so many divided debates when someone's mare isn't considered breeding worthy. The health care board, the training board, even on HoFo we cannot agree on what responsible horsemanship is. That is a fact of life, and for the most part it leads to the benefits of diversity, but there is the occasion where someone's definition of responsible ownership is providing the bare minimum of care and training for their horses and then taking them to auction when the time comes to sell - you can't stop them from doing that without affecting everyone.

Herdbound, I'll do a dance the day I see low cost euth and removal clinics around here. The fact of the matter is it is only marginally more affordable for the vet to do it - removal is extremely expensive here now that the rendering plant is gone. It's easier for dogs and cats, but horses are just too **** big. You are right though, in that the expectations for quality meat is forever increasing, but it is a complex issue. Just like other meat animals, there are ways of testing, feedlots for the animal to wait out the needed withdrawl time, as well as research being done on which medications are safe and which aren't, in what amounts, etc. Even with restrictions, there will be new developments that will allow the horses to move through the system just like our drug riddled cattle.

With the current economic mess, Horse meat exports have declined - it isn't a needed commodity like wheat, and people tend to spend more on things they need rather than luxury items during difficult economic times. There are also producers in Europe who are trying to direct buyers towards domestic horsemeat rather than what is imported from North America. If demand for horse meat dies out, then horse slaughter will die out with it. However then what? Will all horses experience a life of comfort and happiness? I personally doubt it, more likely that those 130,000 unwanted horses will still be unwanted, and as I said, a different outlet would be found.
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    02-16-2012, 06:51 PM
I'm not worried about my minis going to slaughter (I would be if I was forced to get rid of them). They are well behaved, trained and in good condition. That's not my point. My point is that Faye is saying "I wouldn't have to worry about my horse going to slaughter". Well, I'm glad she has a top quality horse that she believes would never go to slaugher but not all of us have horses like that. And sometimes whether a good horse goes to slaughter or not has nothing to do with the owners so I don't know what you mean by "If their owner didn't care enough to market them better". What the heck is my point? Well, I'll tell you. I posted my opinion (which I have a right to as well as you have a right to yours) on this thread and made the mistake of using the words "Animal Rights Activist" and got attacked for it. I respect your opinion (obviously pro-slaughter) and I would appreciate it very much if everyone respected mine in turn (anti-slaughter) because it's not changing. I knew most people wouldn't agree with me on it but I never dreamed it would go on like this.
    02-16-2012, 07:38 PM
I'm not going to get into the "animal rights activist" discussion - I never went after you for that, although I do agree with the implied definition others posted about - I prefer to advocate animal welfare.

"Obviously pro-slaughter" does have a touch of attitude to it though - especially since right before that you go on about the activist label you feel was unfairly attached to you. It's somewhat the fundamental error in this entire thread, if you read the earlier pages you'll see the discussion - bottom line is, parallel to the debate on abortion, "pro-choice" would be more appropriate. "Pro-slaughter" suggests that one considers horse slaughter to not only be necessary but preferable, and would act out of interest of the industry rather than the welfare of the horses. That is not my position. I see it as an undesirable option for unwanted horses, but an option nonetheless. Should the industry no longer be feasible due to a decline in demand, I'd let it die, but would be prepared to see an alternative outlet for unwanted horses crop up. Who knows what, since slaughter has never *not* been an option in North America.

I'm not going to nitpick Faye's statement either, my point was based off of your post. If you are worried about your minis' fate should you be forced to get rid of them, that is something you need to look into now, not if/when the situation arises. Due diligence.

And sometimes whether a good horse goes to slaughter or not has nothing to do with the owners
Please explain. Specific examples would be helpful?

I am sorry that you feel attacked - that isn't my intent at all. This is a subject that I am passionate about and am always actively learning about - I enjoy sharing what I know, getting clarification and try to maintain an open mind - if a statement is made that I am not sure about, I research it. Sometimes I find that the statement was sound and I have to reaffirm my position; that's great, that's called learning. What disappoints me is that when I challenge "facts" presented by those opposed to slaughter, I am either met with silence or an emotional outburst! My position is not set in stone, but so far nobody has either bothered or been able to move it.

What happens with threads like this is constructive debate - I enjoy it, some don't - many misinterpret it as an aggressive argument and get emotional and/or offended (hence the many "omg let this die already" posts). If debates were such a bad thing, then why do schools have entire teams dedicated to it? If you happen to be in high school and they offer a debate team, I would highly recommend it. It teaches you extremely valuable skills that are significantly lacking in the general population - critical thinking, the ability to research information effectively to form an argument, the ability to view things objectively without being swayed by emotions, an indispensable ability to communicate clearly and effectively with others, and the ability to read material and be able to form your own educated opinion (not just the one the writer wants you to have) - just to name a few.

It's apparent to me that you want validation on your position and are not interested in having your remarks challenged. With that I'll throw up my hands, and watch from the stands for a while and let someone else have a go. Good luck to you!
    02-17-2012, 02:02 AM
Gremmy without going into a lengthy debate with you let me first say I really do feel that the pro and anti-slaughter people want the same thing. We want the overpopulation to cease. That has to start with the over breeding of horses. There are two main "problems" that need to have more accountability and that is the Racing Industry with its constant need more 2 and 3 year old horses and the quarter horse industries need for fresh blood. Of the almost 10 million horses in the US 1/3 are quarter horses...I find that amazing! When people refer to slaughter as a place for "undesireable, unmanageable, or unhealthy animals" that is false. MOST of the horses sent to slaughter are in excellent physical health and are mentally intact. The TB race horses are amongst many of them...this is a meat market and they want MEAT not bones. Just like skinny cows would not make a nice butchering prospect neither do skinny horses. As far as processing plants in America being more humane and clean I would also disagree on that fact.

In 2007 two horse slaughter plants in Texas were ordered closed following protracted battles with their local municipalities, who voiced objections over the slaughter houses' financial drain on the municipalities without providing tax revenue, ditches of blood, dismembered foals, and reek of offal and waste in residential neighborhoods. Later that year, an abattoir in Illinios, reported to be the last horse meat abattoir in the U.S., was also closed following local community action. Prior to 2007, three major equine Slaughterhouses operated in the United States: Dallas Crown, Inc. In Kaufman, Texas; Beltex Corporation in Fort Worth, Texas; and Cavel International, Inc. In Dekalb, Illinois, all with Belgian ownership, although Multimeat NW has also been listed as French and Dutch owned. Velda NV owns Cavel, Multimeat NV owns Beltex and Chevideco owns Dallas Crown.

We are all fighting over if slaughter is right or wrong and the focus is being taken away from the real issues. Why are there so many horses? What industries are responsible for having the most "excess" and is it truly necessary? The main supplier to the slaughter pipeline is NOT your backyard breeder down on his luck. It is these HUGE industries who breed way to many foals to supply some need for greed. There are almost 1 million racehorses over HALF of them are breeding stock...that is rediculous and extremely wasteful. The other problem that gets mixed into this issue is the accountability of people who neglect horses to the point of starvation THEN take the poor thing down to the auction and try to make money off of it rather than have their butts prosecuted for being neglectful. This is a very SMALL fraction of the horses sent to slaughter. In fact if they are that poor they are rejected for transport. As long as the pipeline is open to soak up the excess of the larger industries they will continue to overbreed and be unaccountable for the suffering that they intentionally cause. No sane human being would ever want any animal to endure undue suffering. So I really think we are all fighting for the same things...but just need to come up with a way to put this anti/pro crap behind us and look at the real issues at hand and find real solutions so this suffering can stop.

My honest opinion on the matter is that if we HAVE to have a racing industry that NEEDS so many new babies hey need to figure out a way to cut a TB's life down to about 7 years geneticly because that's about how long they are valued...IF they are lucky. Instead of addressing this symptom (slaughter) we need to address the cause (irresponsible horsebreeding & ownership). If we can cure the problem the slaughter could stop.
    02-17-2012, 02:10 AM
I also wanted to point out. I take very good care of my horses but I am always afraid that in the middle of the night someone who wants to make a quick buck will come lead my mares on a trailer and take them to "Sugar Creek" and make a few hundred bucks off of them at sale for slaughter. I mean it isn't hard to open a gate and lead my girls on a trailer and poof my beloved girl is up on the auction block on Friday night.
    02-17-2012, 02:47 AM
I only skimmed a few earlier posts, but here is my honest opinion.

I am neither for or against slaughter. I don't know if any of you subscribe to Horse Illustrated, but there was an article that gave pros and cons from both sides. I agreed more with the woman who was against slaughter. But I also completely understand the need for it. There are horses who are dying slowly and it would be more humane to end their lives. I know of a local (3-4 hours) "rescue" facility that takes in unwanted/abandoned horses. It is a complete nightmare. There are 300+ horses in one pasture full of metal and junk, not getting fed and are literally skin and bones. One of my friends rescued a filly from this facility after the owner didn't vaccinate her for tetanus (she had huge cuts and scrapes on her legs from all the metal). She wanted to take some other horses home but she simply didn't have room. She moved the filly out to her place, only to find out it was too late. She died of tetanus. Why this hell hole hasn't been shut down I will never know.

The scary part is I know and have ridden horses that have gone to this place simply because the owners did not want them anymore. What a horrible death. And to think, they could have been something.

In this situation or any situation where horses would be better off dead, instead of shipping them to a slaughter house in a small trailer, possibly dying on the way, and having a tortuous death, I believe euthanization is the answer. If there was truly a way to "humanely slaughter" horses, then I might be okay with that. But shooting a horse with a nail/bolt gun is NOT humane. It simply stuns them and causes pain. There are other ways
    02-17-2012, 03:17 AM
Gonna try to keep this short.

Two things:

First, herdbound, I agree with you to a point. The question is, how do you stop the breeding without restricting the rights of responsible owners/breeders? Hang out on some breeding boards for a few weeks and then think about it - I've done so, and perhaps I've gotten jaded when it comes to convincing others when they should and shouldn't breed.

Second, I'm actually lacking in this area - how does a captive bolt gun (not nail gun - where the heck are they using that for slaughter?) differ from a regular firearm? The extent of my understanding is that it is as its name suggests, a bolt that remains with the gun as opposed to a bullet that leaves it (which I would imagine could be a safety issue inside a slaughterhouse?) If the issue is simply that the shot in the head is inhumane, I disagree. Lots of information about that on here.

"humane euthanasia" - in this case the lethal injection, results in a corpse that is effectively toxic. Anything that eats it will die. If buried, the barbituates get in the soil - huge environmental problem, especially near a water source. I've read reports of it staying in the soil for 30+ years.

By using this method on otherwise slaughterbound horses, wouldn't we be creating as big of an environmental problem as the slaughterhouses which were closed? The houses can be adjusted to be more environmentally friendly (nevermind the fact that similar complaints have been directed towards the rest of the meat processing industry - there's no reason why horse processing cannot run at the same standard, at which point it need not be singled out without addressing the entire meat industry.), but that humane injection isn't getting any less toxic.
    02-17-2012, 03:51 AM
I am Pro. An I don't care if you are Anti its a choice and an opinion. However if you do your research as I have you will now there are a hundred more pros then cons. The only Con Anti has is abuse, but with the right regulations abuse is out. And by keeping it illegal you are putting horses in more danger then by just having it legal.

Horse meat provides food to countries, horse meat is healthier then beef, it is better food alternative for large cats in captivity, it is apart of a 14 billion dollar dog food industry(we love our pets so we should stop feeding them high sodium crap),and it helps reduce the 100,000 unwanted domesticated horses in the US, plus it would help reduce the number of feral horses which is now in the 80,000 an charging the US a feed bill in the billions. Why should we waste good healthy meat, and throw it away or bury it in the ground, or let is starve on our pasture lands when it could be used for something better.

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