Are you pro-slaughter? POLL - Page 43 - The Horse Forum
View Poll Results: Are you pro-slaughter
I am pro-slaughter 161 66.53%
I am anti-slaughter 69 28.51%
I don't know yet 12 4.96%
Voters: 242. You may not vote on this poll

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post #421 of 516 Old 03-04-2012, 08:07 PM
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Yeesh this just goes on and on and on and on and on and on and on......................ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZ! I've been to slaughter houses, not pretty, but it is a sad industry.
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post #422 of 516 Old 03-04-2012, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Speed Racer View Post
Cannibalism is a health risk. Eating your own kind, especially their brain matter, can cause something similar to Mad Cow disease in humans. It's been documented among aboriginal tribes who practice it.

So there's that, even if you want to ignore the moral and ethical taboos, as well as thinking murder is okay.

I'm not sure what you define as 'unnecessary'. Obviously supply and demand play a big part in how many animals, not just horses, are consumed.

Okay, so its for health reasons. The data you reference presumabley was collected from cultures that practice cannabalism. There are many people that are deemed "unfit" that are executed on a yearly basis around the globe, so no need for murder, however, since at least one culture is known to practice it (demand)...I will concede that it could lead to that (murder).

I personally define "unnecessary slaughter" as slaughtering a perfectly healthy horse.

Yes, supply and demand determines everything pretty much. But, as with transplant organs for which there is a huge demand, the supply is often regulated to protect all of those involved.

I strongly feel undesirable horses should not be bred. I believe that if licensing were required and one had to simply identify what traits/abilities they sought in the "planned offspring", why, and why they felt the breeding of sire x to dam y would produce said traits - as well as be advised of the associated costs, longevity, and potential sale value, it would reduce the number of "undesirable" horses being "created". Even if NO license could be would raise awareness ten-fold.

In an economic downturn, be it on a national scale or individual, healthy undesirable (e.g., glaring confirmation defects or an untrained, grade adult horse) are the most likely candidates of the "healthy sort" to go to slaughter. I call it "unnecessary" since ordinarily a bit of effort goes into having a mare bred or keeping a stud... standing at stud...or not. Most breedings are not breeding undesirable stock is easily avoided.

Registrations to a large degree already "self police", and for all intents and purposes achieve the same goal (i.e., to not produce undesirable horses) to the degree possible.

It would neither hinder people's "rights" nor stop slaughter. But, it would reduce the number of horses that are "unnecessarily" slaughtered.

And, I am with herd, no animal should ever suffer at slaughter. I am also w PETA, keep it in the US so it can be regulated. As much as I wish it were not practiced, it is, and it cannot be stopped - but it can be regulated.
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There is just as much horse sense as ever, but the horses have most of it.

Last edited by Missy May; 03-04-2012 at 09:08 PM.
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post #423 of 516 Old 03-04-2012, 09:48 PM
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Animal breeding of ANY kind in it's best and purest form was to develop a better animal than it's parents and maintain standards of confirmation, temperament, hardiness and general wellness . Too much breeding now is about mass producing animals, no matter how muttled the gene pool becomes, to produce more babies to make more money. Good breeding is imperative to the prosperity of our horses. It used to be people took pride in the animals they produced, a certain name on a pedigree meant something spectacular. Anymore it seems like names don't mean much at all because all kinds of horses have been bred to this and that you can't even tell by looking at papers if you got something good...breeding standards went down hill at least in my opinion.

As far as all the other stuff that is being debated...truth is human beings in a crisis situation will resort to any form of survival I guess. I mean in Russia they used to have a afraid of the fat man. When everyone you knew was starving to death and a certain individual was unaffected by the dire starvation that inflicted everyone was said he was feasting on people. People who would die in the streets would often have their rumps roughly removed by others who had resorted to this. People can do anything imaginable in my book and they can also craft a very viable excuse no matter what their behavior may be. Thats where "ethical committees" come into make decisions for people who can't seem to make them on their own - for whatever reason. There has to be a standard enforced across the board from birth to death to ensure humane and ethical treatment of animals.
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post #424 of 516 Old 03-05-2012, 07:21 AM
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You're living in a dream-world.

We can't even enforce the laws that are on the books!

We can't even stop child abuse!

We can't tell drug addict and welfare bums that they can't have 10 children!

And YOU ALL think we can take away property rights and tell horse owners AND ENFORCE breeding bans on their privately owned stock when we cannot do any of the above?

Get real. It is strictly a market based decision. It is governed by the laws of 'supply and demand'. At this time, no one in the US is breeding for eating purposes. [Iceland has for many years but we do not.] No one plans on selling a foal to the killer buyer. Half of the people that take a horse to the local sale do not even realize that there is a good chance that the killer buyer will be the only one to bid on the horses they are having to sell. [You can't fix stupid.]

When the market crashed (a very good market I might add), it has taken several years to 'clear out' the over-supply'. That is a natural thing.

People HAVE bred far fewer horses since the market crash. In 2010, the AQHA alone registered fewer horses that at any time since 1972. That is the breeders responding to the market -- like it should be.

Ten years ago the market was VERY HIGH for nearly every class and kind of horses. There were still 125,000 horses going to slaughter -- right here is the US. There will always be that number or more of horses that are unwanted, unusable, and not bid on at any sale or will not find a private person to sell them to. There will always be that number of horses that need to be 'disposed' of. The killer buyers are the 'bottom feeders' that get rid of the junk and the excess horses. Thank goodness they are there. There is certainly no one else that will take all of them in -- Never has been and never will be.

Had slaughter not been banned in the US and had horses not lost their value because of it, I think there would have been more than 300,000 a year sent to slaughter just like there was in the recession and 'horse GLUT' of the 90s. Instead, the others were starved to death, abandoned or killed by their owners or a Vet and a 'FEW' were 'SAVED' by the rescuers -- usually the least useful ones.

[We 'retired' several that we are still feeding, still have several young mares we are training now with the help of an apprentice trainer and we killed several older mares instead of sending them to Mexico. It has probably cost us $100,000.00 or more to NOT send horses to Mexico.] Not very many breeders are so inclined or have the money to keep and feed the horses that they cannot use or sell. Our horses are lucky to be alive and fat.
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Last edited by Cherie; 03-05-2012 at 08:43 AM.
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post #425 of 516 Old 03-05-2012, 07:34 AM
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I think it would help to define the terms being used by those opposed to slaughter.

Backyard breeder- Everyone that breeds horses except me.

Unnecessary breedings- See backyard breeder.

Irresponsible owner- Everyone but me

Poorly bred horses- All of them but mine

Unwanted horses- Myth

Necessary slaughter- Myth

Unnecessary slaughter- Any slaughter

Humane slaughter- See necessary slaughter

Inhumane slaughter- Any practice that ends the life of an animal

Vegetarian- Unlightened human unwilly to kill inocent animals to survive

Animal rights activist- See vegetarian

There's nothing like the Rockies in the springtime... Nothing like the freedom in the air... And there ain't nothing better than draggin calves to the fire and there's nothing like the smell of burning hair. -Brenn Hill
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post #426 of 516 Old 03-05-2012, 08:39 AM
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hahaha Kevin thats funny. :) I actually got a chuckle out of it...a REAL lol. I am a vegetarian...and I am enlightened. I don't eat meat because I don't want to smell like a predator that is my primary reasoning behind that...just to have better get along with unstarted horses. I don't like factory farming either. I grew up on a farm and I am all for people sustaining themselves by raising livestock to eat. I am all for eating meat. IF I didn't work with horses I would eat meat as well...BUT it would be cattle, chickens and hogs I raised here. I may little "strange" in my beliefs...but they work for me. I do have an open mind...I understand there is always going to be excess numbers of horses I just believe in finding a compromise in the situation. An animals life can be ended BEFORE it even knows what has happened. My dad worked in the slaughterhouse for regular animals and yesterday we were talking bout that. I told him I had a problem with it. He detailed how they used electricity on the hogs, and the bang stick on the cattle & sheep. I said dad both of those don't kill the animal...they are means by which to stun it before it is hooked and then the real killing happens by slicing their throats and having them bleed out. Thats the stuff I have a problem with. I think it is inhumane to start butchering an animal before it is dead. Often they are stunned, hung up, necks sliced, and disemboweled while alive. That just seems unecessary to me.
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post #427 of 516 Old 03-05-2012, 08:46 AM
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'You can learn anything with these three words – observe, remember, and compare. Beyond that, learn to adjust to fit the situation." Tom Dorrance

I admire him as a trainer and a person. This quote is appropriate for working horses and life in general...I think it sums up my stance on this issue.
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post #428 of 516 Old 03-05-2012, 09:11 AM
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I don't eat meat because I don't want to smell like a predator that is my primary reasoning behind that...just to have better get along with unstarted horses.
For the life of me I do not get where this comes from. I am very much a meat eater as are all of my horsemen friends. I get along very well with young horses and all of the rest of them. In a few minutes I have them following me around and have them all greet me at the gate. [I am not the one that feeds them.] I do not know what I could do that would make it any easier. Most people tell me that I have a 'better way' with horses than anyone they have ever seen.

So, do you have documented proof of this? Do you have proof from studies done by people that have no agenda other than to find the truth?

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post #429 of 516 Old 03-05-2012, 10:12 AM
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For one last time I will address some of the mis-information and lies put out by the animal right activists as truth.

This is what the AAEP licensed Veterinarians have to say about horse slaughter by captive bolt. It also explains the TRUTH about Mexican Slaughter Plants. I would rather believe them than some misinformed liar with an agenda and the lies these misinformed liars write on 'Wikipedia'.

Here is the article that I referred to before -- written by Equine Veterinarians.

It pretty much refutes all of the lies and arguments we have listened to here.

JAVMA Magazine Article
March 1, 2009
Horse slaughter conditions in Mexico explored by AAEP group
Debate over the practice continues in Congress Back

Though nearly two years have passed since the last horse processing plant closed in the United States, horses continue being shipped from the United States to slaughterhouses in Mexico and Canada.
Looking at 2008 Department of Agriculture figures, close to 80,000 horses from the United States traveled to Mexico for slaughter and approximately 40,000 went to Canada. The estimated total of 120,000 is less than the 140,000 figure from 2007.
"That's still a tremendous amount of horses," said Dr. Timothy Cordes, a senior staff veterinarian for equine programs with the USDA Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service. He also noted that the final numbers won't be available until the end of March. The USDA's numbers are based on the number of owner/shipper certificates corroborated with other sources.
To get a better idea of how the Mexican horse slaughter industry operates, a delegation representing the American Association of Equine Practitioners arranged a tour of two Mexican slaughter facilities in the central Mexican city of Zacatecas last fall. Both are federally inspected, but one meets European standards and the other, which is locally owned and run, meets Mexican standards.
"If you look at it from the hard perspective of the meat industry, they're in the business to produce meat. They don't want an injured or down or stressed horse any more than they have to, because it affects the meat quality,"
AAEP past presidents Drs. Tom R. Lenz and Doug G. Corey, as well as an international member of the AAEP board of directors, Dr. Sergio Salinas, visited the area Nov. 9-10. They first toured one of the two South American-owned plants that operate under European Union and Mexican slaughter regulations. Five federal Mexican veterinary inspectors work at the plant in addition to three company veterinarians. In all, 200 are employed there. About 1,000 horses are processed a week; half are Mexican and the rest from the United States. Mexican and U.S. horses are kept separate during travel but are processed at the same facilities.
"All of the American horses arrive in sealed trailers," Dr. Lenz said, noting that the horses aren't unloaded or sold anywhere, but go straight from the border to the plant. A federal seal is placed on the horses at the border. They are then shipped for 10 to 12 hours to one of the two federal inspection type, or TIF, plants in Zacatecas. "They say they could make it in eight hours but choose 10 to 12 because they arrive in better condition," Dr. Lenz said.
On arrival at the processing plant, a federal Mexican veterinarian cuts the seal. Any horses severely injured in transport are euthanized.

A delegation representing the AAEP, including Dr. Tom R. Lenz (center), took a tour of two horse slaughterhouses Nov. 9-10 in Zacatecas, Mexico. Dr. Lenz said the plants were well-run, and workers killed the horses humanely by captive bolt.

The AAEP group met with the manager of the plant and was allowed free access throughout the building, where they spent three to four hours.
"They allowed us to look at everything and take pictures. Even in the United States you are seldom allowed to take pictures at a processing plant," Dr. Lenz said.
Dr. Lenz, who is also chairman of the Unwanted Horse Coalition, looked at the horses in the paddocks where most stay for a week or so. He said the pens looked clean and the horses looked good, although he classified them as "slimmer." On a scale ascending from one to nine, as Dr. Lenz put it, he saw many fours and fives. He could tell they were slimmer than the ones he saw at a former plant in Fort Worth, Texas.
"They told us (that's the kind of) horses they're buying now," Dr. Lenz said, noting that is the case because owners are holding onto their horses for a while, even when they can't afford them.
Plant officials told Dr. Lenz they see horses at sale barns too thin for meat processing. They also noted the price of horses has gone down; meanwhile, the cost to ship a horse from Morton, Texas, to Zacatecas stays at about $200.
"(The shipping cost) drives down what they're willing to pay for these horses," Dr. Lenz said.
Before processing, workers move the horses with flags rather than whips. One at a time the horses go into stocks. Once in place, a hydraulic bar pushes the horse forward while a wedge-shaped stainless steel device comes under the chin and cradles the head. This limits the horse's movement, Dr. Lenz said, which better facilitates placement of the captive device.
Dr. Lenz watched a couple dozen horses being killed by captive bolt, with which he said the employees were "extremely accurate." The skulls were then inspected for glanders and the carcasses randomly tested for drug residues and parasites in the meat as well as Escherichia coli and Salmonella infections.
Employees wear white coveralls, hats, gloves, masks, and hairnets while working, in addition to scrubbing their boots before coming in and out of the processing area.
The facility ships the meat to Japan and Europe for human consumption. "If you look at it from the hard perspective of the meat industry, they're in the business to produce meat. They don't want an injured or down or stressed horse any more than they have to, because it affects the meat quality," Dr. Lenz said.
Other parts from the horse do not go to waste. The hides are sent to Italy, hair from the mane and tail goes to China for paintbrushes, the small intestines go to Egypt for sausage casings, the tendons go to Japan for human consumption, and the hooves and tail (without the hair) to a rendering plant.
"(The plant) was an extremely clean, well-run plant. ... From a veterinary perspective, the animals were handled well," he said.
The other processing plant the group visited was locally owned by a Mexican company that solely dealt with Mexican horses. Sellers, arriving in their pickup trucks and trailers, would bring their horses to the plant two or three at a time. This plant processes only about 280 horses a week and has 12 employees. A veterinarian wasn't on site; however, one did come once a week to inspect the meat and facility, Dr. Lenz said.
This processing plant also kills the horses by captive bolt, though the stocks were not as sophisticated as at the other plant.
Overall, the group's assessment of the trip concluded that both plants use captive bolt in a humane and efficient manner, and the horses were well-cared-for and properly handled.
Vet Schools also teach that a captive bolt is one of the accepted methods of euthanasia. It is as acceptable as chemical solutions made for the purpose.

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Last edited by Cherie; 03-05-2012 at 10:16 AM.
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post #430 of 516 Old 03-05-2012, 10:14 AM
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Yes, definitions are good. Such as a page from the pro-slaughter handbook:

Slaughter in general: let no horse be spared so I can have the freedom to spare no horse.

Compromise: Not an option, "saughter in general" is the only correct thinking b/c anything else is communism.

All anti-slaughter individuals: Commies!!! Have no knowledge of horses. A threat to the very foundations of our freedoms.

All pro-slaughter individuals: Constitutional and equine experts - freedom fighters! Human rights activists.

Laws: Better to have none since some are bad.

PRC: good commies b/c they set a good example by eating horse meat and have a long history of extremely cruel slaughter practices - unfettered by nasty regulations, are to be admired and emulated.

Life: St. Frances was a complete idiot, only people matter - except anti-slaughter folks.

Logic: Must be dictated by proslaughter - or else we will loose our freedoms.

since I HOPE you were being sarcastic, Kevin....I hope you are feeling charitable today, and allow me the same "freedom"!
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There is just as much horse sense as ever, but the horses have most of it.
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