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Extended trot...

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  • Extended trot of the horse
  • Dressage toe flicking

 
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    08-20-2008, 12:26 AM
  #11
Banned
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustDressageIt
Okay, here's my answer:

The third horse has the best extended trot.

Modern dressage has got people so focused on the "showy-ness" of a trot (the toe-flick, big movement) that they've forgotten what a good mover looks like.

Please do go read "Tug Of War; Classical Versus Modern dressage" - it has made me really think about my training techniques.
Absolutely. I didn't like the forehand (head positioning) of the third horse but the actual trot is correct. I just find that even the judges get overwhelmed by all the flashiness of the toe flick and hyperextension of the foreleg and riders are being rewarded for tenseness, no halts ( like Anky's invisible halt), and faulty piaffes.

Now this is good dressage and is still held up to be a fluid piece of work.

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=8T3AcvnEuMw

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=tKbqokuTzh8
     
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    08-20-2008, 12:33 AM
  #12
Showing
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spyder
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustDressageIt
Okay, here's my answer:

The third horse has the best extended trot.

Modern dressage has got people so focused on the "showy-ness" of a trot (the toe-flick, big movement) that they've forgotten what a good mover looks like.

Please do go read "Tug Of War; Classical Versus Modern dressage" - it has made me really think about my training techniques.
Absolutely. I didn't like the forehand (head positioning) of the third horse but the actual trot is correct. I just find that even the judges get overwhelmed by all the flashiness of the toe flick and hyperextension of the foreleg and riders are being rewarded for tenseness, no halts ( like Anky's invisible halt), and faulty piaffes.

Now this is good dressage and is still held up to be a fluid piece of work.

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=8T3AcvnEuMw

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=tKbqokuTzh8
Beautiful videos, thanks for sharing!!

I completely agree with riders' harsh methods being rewarded by judges today; a horse can be tense as all get-out, but if he has a flashy trot? Game over.
     
    08-20-2008, 12:37 AM
  #13
Foal
Hm. I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with you. You can't compare the evenness of the legs and how parallel they are in the first two pictures to the last picture. Again, because they are in different points in the stride, the could be (and probably ARE) moving very similarly. The third horse, may move the same as the other, but because he's in the down swing the stride, where his legs are moving down toward the ground, his legs are parallel, so they can strike the ground evenly. The other two pics however, the horses are in the UP swing of the stride where their legs are moving UP, away from the ground. Their legs are going to create different lines just because of how the horse is built. The legs can't lift as high in the back due to there being horse above them, but in the front, there is much more room for a lifted leg as long as the horse has a swinging, mobile shoulder. Plus, the legs will never be stick-straight all the time, no matter how good of a mover the horse is. The lines of the legs are going to differ.

Another thing I wanted to mention is that you are measuring two very different parts of the horse's legs. If you want consistent measurements of how much the legs are parallel to each other, then you shoulder measure the lower half of the limb. So make the lines even with the cannon bones on both the front and the hind legs. The forearm is going to be at a severely different angle from the hind legs at this point in the stride because the leg has to be bent in order to lift the leg, so comparing hind cannons to forearms is not going to be an accurate measure.

If you don't believe me, look at this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7uuW6KfEjY

If you pause in that video periodically throughout the extended trots, you will see many different phases of the trots, including two that look very similar to all three of the pics that you posted, plus several others.

Hope you don't take this post the wrong way, I'm just throwing this out there for discussion!
     
    08-20-2008, 12:42 AM
  #14
Showing
JB, do you disagree that the trot in the first two are incorrect?
     
    08-20-2008, 12:46 AM
  #15
Foal
I'm not saying that they are correct or incorrect, in the way that you are. They sure all have flaws in different ways, but because there are so many different phases in the gait, you really can't compare the flashiness or the "pop" or the action in their gaits with only one picture (of each horse). You'd need an entire video or a series of close pictures to properly depict and critique the trot.
     
    08-20-2008, 01:40 PM
  #16
Green Broke
Interesting topic, JDI!

Even if the 3rd horse has the most "textbook" trot with regards to his legs being parallel, I don't like the way the horse is moving...his head is held into frame, and he has NO muscle (or, wrong muscle) in his neck...and should definitely not be in a double bridle (or working extended trot).

While I think that you are correct about too much emphasis being put in the "pop" of the gaits, those horses couldn't do that unless they were being ridden through the back and into the bridle - an uncollected or incorrectly ridden horse just wouldn't be able to perform in the same way (my bet says the 3rd horse couldn't move like that).

I think that the pictures chosen to compare the 3 were not completely fair, as they are in different parts of the stride...JMO though. My vote still goes with photo #1
     
    08-20-2008, 02:12 PM
  #17
Weanling
Wow what an awesome topic! I think I agree as far as the 3rd one being the better extended trot, since that is what we are supposed to be looking at anyway... Although since we are looking at different frames in the trot it is really had to tell. The expulsion in the first one is awesome but at the same time both 1 and 2 have an extended front leg and no extended hind. So therefore it can't be correct am I right?? I really don't know though, but that is just how I see it!
     
    08-20-2008, 07:00 PM
  #18
Banned
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArabianAmor
Wow what an awesome topic! I think I agree as far as the 3rd one being the better extended trot, since that is what we are supposed to be looking at anyway... Although since we are looking at different frames in the trot it is really had to tell. The expulsion in the first one is awesome but at the same time both 1 and 2 have an extended front leg and no extended hind. So therefore it can't be correct am I right?? I really don't know though, but that is just how I see it!
The requirement in the extended trot is that the horse should be gaining ground through. This cannot happen when the haunches are not being used correctly either as lack of power( impulsion) or distance in striding ( short angle).
     
    08-20-2008, 07:36 PM
  #19
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spyder
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArabianAmor
Wow what an awesome topic! I think I agree as far as the 3rd one being the better extended trot, since that is what we are supposed to be looking at anyway... Although since we are looking at different frames in the trot it is really had to tell. The expulsion in the first one is awesome but at the same time both 1 and 2 have an extended front leg and no extended hind. So therefore it can't be correct am I right?? I really don't know though, but that is just how I see it!
The requirement in the extended trot is that the horse should be gaining ground through. This cannot happen when the haunches are not being used correctly either as lack of power( impulsion) or distance in striding ( short angle).
Eh I don't know... I trust you though. Still learning this topic really. Thanks for the correction though
     
    08-21-2008, 12:18 AM
  #20
Showing
Although they are in different phases, you can still compare them in the way I'm asking you to, as the other two have become disjointed - the footfall pattern has been disrupted, so they won't look like the third horse in that phase of the stride; the legs would have to work double time and then some to be able to right up again.
And to be honest, I was just looking at the legs when I chose these pictures that's the part of the book I'm in. I realize that there are different aspects of the body coming into play, but I was wanting to comment on the legs specifically, and even more specifically, the broken rhythm.
More to the point, horses who do a showy, snappy trot are winning, not the horses that exhibit a good, balanced striding extended trot, which I don't think is right; the first two images show the horses incorrectly striding out, where the trot rhythm has been broken.
     

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