Struggle w/ 2 point - Page 2 - The Horse Forum
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post #11 of 26 Old 10-06-2013, 09:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsms View Post
Hmmmm...George Morris, Littauer, Chamberlin and others with a pretty impressive track record disagree with you. The US Cavalry manual said:

"Toes turned in stiffen the ankles, force the heels out, and cause loss of contact of proper parts of the calves of the legs. This fault reduces the security of the rider and makes the correct use of the legs impossible. Excessively turned out toes stiffen the ankles, put the knees out of contact, place the rider on the back of his thighs and disrupt the seat."

Where is that sweet spot? It varies for each person and depends in part on what horse they are on. It could run as little as 10 deg, or as much as 45 deg.
I said nothing about forcing her toes in.

Just don't duck foot it. The comment I was referring to just said - stick your toes out - which to a novice rider and be interpreted as the latter part of your quote. Actually - I'm pretty sure I paraphrased that last part - that excessively pointing your toe of leads to your knee coming off and rolling onto the back of your leg. I agree - you want a natural "roll" to you leg so your toes come off the horse naturally. Really the depend on how "far" is where the inseam of your calf falls on the horse and how your ankles "attach" from there.

But you don't want to STICK your toes out to gain false balance and create a whole other tub of troubles.

Last edited by jagman6201; 10-06-2013 at 09:53 PM.
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post #12 of 26 Old 10-06-2013, 11:22 PM
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It's not a false balance, it's a wider platform. Comes from an athletic stance, such as kickboxing, which I do. You won't grip with your knees either, in fact, it'll get your calves elongated. After you develop the muscle memory, you won't even want that platform as your legs and feet will be in the position you need for aids. Anyways, it was the way I was taught through thousands of dollars of instruction and it worked.
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post #13 of 26 Old 10-06-2013, 11:44 PM
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Originally Posted by waresbear View Post
It's not a false balance, it's a wider platform. Comes from an athletic stance, such as kickboxing, which I do. You won't grip with your knees either, in fact, it'll get your calves elongated. After you develop the muscle memory, you won't even want that platform as your legs and feet will be in the position you need for aids. Anyways, it was the way I was taught through thousands of dollars of instruction and it worked.
Perhaps I am confused by what you're trying to illustrate... Maybe elaborate more than just turn your toes out?

Because what my mind automatically turns to when someone says "turn your toes out" (without any further instruction or elaboration, which assuming you're talking to a novice rider is not going to necessarily know the potentially vices of turning your toes too far out) turned to someone who has lost their core foundation in their leg and turns to either gripping with their calf/back of thigh or pinching with their knee.

207815_1912216360496_8167819_n.jpg

Any how, if we're going to go off your analogy of kick boxing then you have tho think of not only the width of stance, but the position of your feet in correlation to your entire body. Stand up with your feet at their natural position (could be straight forward, slightly out-turned, etc [like bsms said, that varies]) spread about shoulder width. Have someone try and push you lightly off balance. Now turn your toes out and do it. You're WAY more unstable. Case in point and translates to on top of a horse.
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post #14 of 26 Old 10-07-2013, 12:15 AM
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The problem is that MANY instructors tell their students to turn their toes FORWARD. Having been a newbie not that long ago, that results in gripping with the knees.

When I took martial arts, BTW, I was taught the basic stance had one leg back some, feet at a 90 deg angle from each other. That would be 45 out with two feet...but there is more to it when riding.

However, for the OP: I recently bought a copy of "Riding and Schooling Horses" by Harry Chamberlin.

http://www.amazon.com/Riding-Schooling-Horses-Harry-Chamberlin/dp/1163173290/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1381115555&sr=1-3&keywords=harry+chamberlin
It has the best description I've ever read of how to sit, position XYZ and WHY that advice works. For anyone learning a forward seat, it is the best beginner's book I've seen. It, BTW, recommends 20-45 toes out, and explains what that gives you.

"Make the right thing easy and the wrong thing...well, ignore it mostly."
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post #15 of 26 Old 10-07-2013, 12:28 AM
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Totally agree that you shouldn't force your toes in. They should "flare" naturally with you calves being on the horses sides actively.

Again - my whole point was less the advice that was given, but rather how it was delivered. Telling a novice student to turn their toes out with no follow-up doesn't bode well for success, just as much as if she had said to turn her toes in.

Great book btw.
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post #16 of 26 Old 10-07-2013, 10:20 AM
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Its far easier to learn the right way than it is to start out wrong and then re-learn
If you can train your muscles to have your toes pointing as much forward as possible then you'll be less likely to end up with them pointing too far out and result in having the backs of your legs against the horse and your heels digging in its side - which will be even worse if you wear spurs
Having your toes turned more forwards will encourage your lower leg, thigh and knee to lie in the correct position for 2 Point
There is no reason whatsoever why it should stiffen the ankle if you build up to it gradually
From your pic your upper body looks very stiff - your back's too hollowed as a result of that and a lot of tension in your neck and shoulders
Try to relax and go with the flow!!!
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post #17 of 26 Old 10-07-2013, 10:58 AM Thread Starter
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I am very stiff!! I just don't feel secure!! I am riding tomorrow and going to try to relax! It's my lack of muscle that is my biggest problem I think!!

Going to order the book right now!!
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post #18 of 26 Old 10-07-2013, 11:04 AM
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How are you in your general riding?
There seems to be a current trend for trainers rushing their students into 2 point and jumping before they feel really balanced and confident - and fit enough in their muscles for it.
You could try various non riding exercises in between lessons to help strengthen your legs
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post #19 of 26 Old 10-07-2013, 11:16 AM Thread Starter
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I am a convert from western... I feel my trot is very good and canter when I sit.... My lower leg isn't as strong as I like.... Sometimes I have too much knee... Not enough calf.... And I am verrrrrrrry rigid... I don't have the grace I see some riders have. I am a very brave rider.... Trainer wants us riding perched at the canter so that's hard for me.... I am getting better every week!!

What are some things I can do on my own for strength?
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post #20 of 26 Old 10-07-2013, 11:20 AM Thread Starter
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And I come down too quickly after the jump.... I kinda plop down
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