Charro--Love it? Hate it? Don't know about it? State your op - Page 2 - The Horse Forum
View Poll Results: What do you think about charro?
I love it 1 7.14%
Can't stand it 5 35.71%
What's Charro?!?! 8 57.14%
Voters: 14. You may not vote on this poll

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post #11 of 31 Old 07-27-2008, 08:37 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustDressageIt
The way they "train" the horses to "dance" is cruel. The horses have no idea what they're doing, they're just expected to move their feet, and that's all they're "trained" to do. There is no finesse of collection, no rhyme or rhythm to it, it's just ... I don't even know how to put words to it. It really depends on the individual charro, alot of them have given the sport a bad name.
To train this movement, the "cowboys" cross-tie the horses in a small space, then wet their backs and haunches down, and whip them to make them "dance." There is no training up to this point, it's just grab and go. Not all Charro horses are trained like that, it's the mexicans that claim it's in thier blood and have never gotten on a horse in thier life. I have seen plenty of those. One of the top charro's in the US Kao, who lives 10 min away does not train his horses like this whatsoever, he keeps his horses in a barn stall and encourages them to move forward with a whip. Once they have started dancing he then stops tapping them with the whip and kisses at them. This is how I taught Hermosa before I knew Kao.
That second video you posted, charriot, I have no idea what those "riders" were trying to make their horses do. The spin at the beginning had absolutely no pivot to it, The Charro rodeos tend to not be based so much on collection as the ones out here, Iv'e seen alot of horses that didnt use thier HQ properly but won because of how quick thier spin was. That video was based on the mexican rodeos in general. The slides differ also. the horse was just turning around fast. A true spin is when the horse rocks back onto its haunches and moves its forehand around the haunches. That horse was just terrified and running in a circle.
Then that "piaffe" type looking thing.. that was a confused horse that was just moving its feet to keep from being hit. A true piaffe is nothing like that.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=BmV987TzK2I&feature=related
http://youtube.com/watch?v=wcnfXBMZy-M&feature=related
These horses are frightened, and have no idea what they're doing.. they just know if they "dance" and keep their feet moving, they won't get whipped.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=SlS85Peki3o&feature=related
This horse is a little better, but the piaffe is supposed to be forward motion and impulsion.. not this stuff. Note the stiff hind end. Pretty sure he's getting whipped too.

This is a nice piaffe, note the forward impulsion and correct use of the hindquarter.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=TAiIoswv57U&feature=related
(1:25)


This stuff makes my blood boil.
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post #12 of 31 Old 07-27-2008, 08:43 PM
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I don't even know what Charro is!!!

Amber.
Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work. ~Thomas Edison
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post #13 of 31 Old 07-27-2008, 08:46 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustDressageIt
Charroit, I really don't mean to be.. well, mean, but I do have some points on the first video you posted, the one about your mare.
That piaffe isn't stemming from collection and impulsion, but is rather flat and just looks like the horse is moving its feet. I'd have to agree with you on that one, were working on putting mare spring into her step though, she just turned 3 yesterday so I don't want to do anything too demanding but I have started her and that's the top I want to go for another couple months because I don't want to ruin her joints.
The flying lead change.. correct me, but from what to what? All I saw was a horse hopping up in the air avoiding the bit... also, a flying lead change is always performed in the air, switching canter leads - I saw a horse on the right lead for a few strides, getting light in the front end from avioding the bit, but there was no lead change. It's not a flying lead change, she was supposed to rear and land on each lead but apperently that's on a diffrent video that I havent uploaded yet.
I really don't want to start anything, but thought I should mention these points. IOf course, you always welcomed to comment or critique if you see something that doesnt look right. No ones going to start anything. You yourself have a nice seat and seem like a half-decent rider from what short video it is, but I honestly didn't see anything really stunning in those videos. Maybe not, but to most Charro's it's pretty good. I think iv'e turned her into a great little charro horse without the abuse.
Please correct me if I'm wrong about anything.
Your friend,
Kendall
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post #14 of 31 Old 07-27-2008, 08:53 PM
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I didn't mean any offence, but to me I would rather see a young horse moving into the bridle and not avoiding it.
But that's my culture.
I wish you the best in your ventures, wish there was better representation of the sport - unfortunately I've only seen the bad and the ugly, and voice my opinion due to that fact. The horses don't look to be using themselves correctly, and just seem to avoid any contact.
But like I said, that is what I've seen in the Charro world, and from that it looks like the majority of the "riders" employ the (cruel) techniques I outlined.
Good on you if you are not doing that.


The lovely images above provided by CVLC Photography cvlphotography.com
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post #15 of 31 Old 07-27-2008, 09:29 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustDressageIt
I didn't mean any offence, but to me I would rather see a young horse moving into the bridle and not avoiding it.
But that's my culture. No offence taken. Actually, when I started out I was taking western then moved on to english when I was doing Dressage, then I worked on reining, halter and western pleasure, then did some endurance and gymkhana then moved on to charro. I'm the only white girl out here that I know of that does this. Lol I find it really fun and want to now try jumping, which i've never done before.
I wish you the best in your ventures, wish there was better representation of the sport - unfortunately I've only seen the bad and the ugly, and voice my opinion due to that fact. The horses don't look to be using themselves correctly, and just seem to avoid any contact. Generally that's true and im not anywhere near the best of the charro's but I prefer the way I train over many others waves of training.
But like I said, that is what I've seen in the Charro world, and from that it looks like the majority of the "riders" employ the (cruel) techniques I outlined.
Good on you if you are not doing that.
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post #16 of 31 Old 07-27-2008, 09:31 PM Thread Starter
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Oops ***ways
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post #17 of 31 Old 07-27-2008, 10:48 PM
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Unfortunately I just read that your mare just turned 3 - I highly suggest that you wait on doing all this advanced stuff - dressage horses don't start in on that extreme collection until they've had all the basics put in place, like impulsion, straightness, extension, collection, lateral movements, etc... the last step is that fancy stuff like the Piaffe and the other "dance" moves. It takes a lot of muscle and a lot of brain, something that I'm afraid a 3 year old just doesn't have.


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post #18 of 31 Old 07-27-2008, 11:27 PM
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Quote:
The way they "train" the horses to "dance" is cruel. The horses have no idea what they're doing, they're just expected to move their feet, and that's all they're "trained" to do. There is no finesse of collection, no rhyme or rhythm to it, it's just ...
I don't even know how to put words to it. It really depends on the individual charro, alot of them have given the sport a bad name.

Charriot or buckinho as I know you more as. I have seen the way you train the so called piaffe that is nothing more than a horse mincing it steps and it IS cruel.

Quote:
To train this movement, the "cowboys" cross-tie the horses in a small space, then wet their backs and haunches down, and whip them to make them "dance." There is no training up to this point, it's just grab and go.
Not all Charro horses are trained like that, it's the mexicans that claim it's in thier blood and have never gotten on a horse in thier life. I have seen plenty of those. One of the top charro's in the US Kao, who lives 10 min away does not train his horses like this whatsoever, he keeps his horses in a barn stall and encourages them to move forward with a whip. Once they have started dancing he then stops tapping them with the whip and kisses at them. This is how I taught Hermosa before I knew Kao.

What I saw was you hitting the horses front legs when you were on the ground and you posted you did this work on the ground because the mare was sore. At least that is what you said on this thread.

http://fhotd64476.yuku.com/topic/2881?page=1

Quote:
That second video you posted, charriot, I have no idea what those "riders" were trying to make their horses do. The spin at the beginning had absolutely no pivot to it,
The Charro rodeos tend to not be based so much on collection as the ones out here, Iv'e seen alot of horses that didnt use thier HQ properly but won because of how quick thier spin was. That video was based on the mexican rodeos in general. The slides differ also.

The problem is that you are 16 years old and trying to train movements on a horse with no training and based on what you perceive to be correct.

Quote:
the horse was just turning around fast. A true spin is when the horse rocks back onto its haunches and moves its forehand around the haunches. That horse was just terrified and running in a circle.
Then that "piaffe" type looking thing.. that was a confused horse that was just moving its feet to keep from being hit. A true piaffe is nothing like that.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=BmV987TzK2I&feature=related
http://youtube.com/watch?v=wcnfXBMZy-M&feature=related
These horses are frightened, and have no idea what they're doing.. they just know if they "dance" and keep their feet moving, they won't get whipped.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=SlS85Peki3o&feature=related
This horse is a little better, but the piaffe is supposed to be forward motion and impulsion.. not this stuff. Note the stiff hind end. Pretty sure he's getting whipped too.

This is a nice piaffe, note the forward impulsion and correct use of the hindquarter.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=TAiIoswv57U&feature=related
(1:25)


This stuff makes my blood boil.
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post #19 of 31 Old 07-28-2008, 01:20 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spyder
Quote:
The way they "train" the horses to "dance" is cruel. The horses have no idea what they're doing, they're just expected to move their feet, and that's all they're "trained" to do. There is no finesse of collection, no rhyme or rhythm to it, it's just ...
I don't even know how to put words to it. It really depends on the individual charro, alot of them have given the sport a bad name.

Charriot or buckinho as I know you more as. I have seen the way you train the so called piaffe that is nothing more than a horse mincing it steps and it IS cruel.

Here we go again. Wasn't I just back on defending myself? GD
The mare was sore in the BACK I repeat the BACK. And I asked her to dance in the FRONT i'll repeat one more time the FRONT. You obviously have alot of facts to get straight before you start this up AGAIN. Just like 3 days ago when someone brought up the entire topic.


Quote:
To train this movement, the "cowboys" cross-tie the horses in a small space, then wet their backs and haunches down, and whip them to make them "dance." There is no training up to this point, it's just grab and go.
Not all Charro horses are trained like that, it's the mexicans that claim it's in thier blood and have never gotten on a horse in thier life. I have seen plenty of those. One of the top charro's in the US Kao, who lives 10 min away does not train his horses like this whatsoever, he keeps his horses in a barn stall and encourages them to move forward with a whip. Once they have started dancing he then stops tapping them with the whip and kisses at them. This is how I taught Hermosa before I knew Kao.

What I saw was you hitting the horses front legs when you were on the ground and you posted you did this work on the ground because the mare was sore. At least that is what you said on this thread.

http://fhotd64476.yuku.com/topic/2881?page=1

Quote:
That second video you posted, charriot, I have no idea what those "riders" were trying to make their horses do. The spin at the beginning had absolutely no pivot to it,
The Charro rodeos tend to not be based so much on collection as the ones out here, Iv'e seen alot of horses that didnt use thier HQ properly but won because of how quick thier spin was. That video was based on the mexican rodeos in general. The slides differ also.

The problem is that you are 16 years old and trying to train movements on a horse with no training and based on what you perceive to be correct.

Quote:
the horse was just turning around fast. A true spin is when the horse rocks back onto its haunches and moves its forehand around the haunches. That horse was just terrified and running in a circle.
Then that "piaffe" type looking thing.. that was a confused horse that was just moving its feet to keep from being hit. A true piaffe is nothing like that.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=BmV987TzK2I&feature=related
http://youtube.com/watch?v=wcnfXBMZy-M&feature=related
These horses are frightened, and have no idea what they're doing.. they just know if they "dance" and keep their feet moving, they won't get whipped.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=SlS85Peki3o&feature=related
This horse is a little better, but the piaffe is supposed to be forward motion and impulsion.. not this stuff. Note the stiff hind end. Pretty sure he's getting whipped too.

This is a nice piaffe, note the forward impulsion and correct use of the hindquarter.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=TAiIoswv57U&feature=related
(1:25)


This stuff makes my blood boil.
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post #20 of 31 Old 07-28-2008, 05:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charroit
Here's my mare when we started out--She shows bothe her dances, the piaffe and the in air lead change which looks like a rear.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=EeuqMdo_FR8

Dancing horse in compitition

http://youtube.com/watch?v=mJw0YbvXcAY
that poor horse in the second movie
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