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This is a discussion on collection within the Horse Riding forums, part of the Riding Horses category
  • What to do when a horse is heavy on the forehand

 
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    06-20-2010, 12:16 AM
  #21
Weanling
So these horses are collected with the headset.???


The height of the head is not from collection, its the horse coming into the bridle and the position is a lot to do with the conformation????
     
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    06-20-2010, 12:18 AM
  #22
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by AQHA    
So both horses heads are out, but there both collected in the vids?

EDIT: wrote^^^b4 I saw the post above. Still have to read it, but I though id say that.
Forget headset completely.

What you want to see is a horse off its forehand (elevated rise in the front when moving not 'plunking' on the front end), cadence in its movement, and length in its stride.

When a horse is 'on the bit' they are not infront of or behind the verticle. But have achieved enough impulsion from behind to move fluidly and finish the connection through the bridle.
     
    06-20-2010, 12:19 AM
  #23
Weanling
Another question. So how do you get the collection. By driving the back end into the bit? Just have the contact and push with you legs and after the horse does good a few strides release?

Then try on a looser and looser rein (after they fully get it) and they will start to hold it themselves?

If you do that then the head sets nice w/o even thinking about it then right?
     
    06-20-2010, 01:37 AM
  #24
Banned
Quote:
Originally Posted by OhSoAppy    
You can't compare that video of Stacy Westfall and the natural position of that horses head(who I do feel is using herself very nicely) .
Actually the horse is not using itself nicely. The canter is almost 4 beat and 80% of the time it is on the forehand.
     
    06-20-2010, 01:39 AM
  #25
Banned
Quote:
Originally Posted by AQHA    
another question. So how do you get the collection. By driving the back end into the bit? Just have the contact and push with you legs and after the horse does good a few strides release?

Then try on a looser and looser rein (after they fully get it) and they will start to hold it themselves?

If you do that then the head sets nice w/o even thinking about it then right?

Actually the answer is no. That is a good way to get the horse stiff in the jaw.
     
    06-20-2010, 01:45 AM
  #26
Pro
Weanling
^^How?

I know it's too long to go through the whole process, but can you explain it a little bit please?
     
    06-20-2010, 02:00 AM
  #27
Banned
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pro    
^^How?

I know it's too long to go through the whole process, but can you explain it a little bit please?

Rein control can be yielding, sustaining or receiving ( and will run the gamut of this range) but should never become fixed.

A fixed or held rein allows the horse to bind the riders hands and any attempt to undo this becomes an effort in futility. You will feel a dead mouth and any freedom for the hand to act will be taken away and used by the horse as a fifth hand.
     
    06-20-2010, 02:01 AM
  #28
Pro
Weanling
So you mean a "sponging" motion with the riders hands?
     
    06-20-2010, 02:04 AM
  #29
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spyder    
Actually the horse is not using itself nicely. The canter is almost 4 beat and 80% of the time it is on the forehand.
Her mare doesn't come close to 4 beating.

This is almost ...if not... a 4 beat lope....and extremely heavy on the forehand:

     
    06-20-2010, 09:15 AM
  #30
Banned
AQHA,

To answer your question from a previous page; none of the three horses you posted photos and vids of are collected.

The dressage video is of an event horse doing a First Level test; collection starts at second level. That horse is not a great example of the terms we're discussing.

In the photo of the western horse loping; that horse is connected back to front and moving from his hind end, but not collected.

True collection in the dressage sense feels like a sports care revved up to the redline but with the clutch in. You know if you let that clutch out a lot of energy is going to escape.

To try to answer some of your other questions; a horse doesn't have to have lots of overtrack to be considered engaged. I use engagement to mean how far under the horse's body the hind end comes before striking the ground and pushing off. Some people use engagement simply to mean that the horse is working from the hind end, and that the hind end is active. Not right or wrong, just a different meaning depending on context.

Additionally, with horses that jump, you'll hear trainers refer to "engaging evenly" - this means that when the horse pushs off to jump, the hind feet are together and pushing off at the same time. A horse that doesn't engage evenly, and leaves one hind leg back, as in the canter stride, can't jump as athletically because there's less "push." It's a heavily penalized fault in hunters.

Overtracking is desirable in hunters because it means a ground covering stride.

Overtracking is desirable in dressage horses because as you move through the levels and work on collected paces and advanced movements, you will lose some of that reach under the body. If you start with a horse with lots of overtrack at the lower levels, you'll still have adequate engagement in the collected paces and advanced movements. If you start with a horse that barely tracks up, and then lose some degree of engagement as you move up, the collected paces/advanced movements will be very hard to achieve, weak or incorrect as the hind end won't be fully under the horse.

A final note - if you only understand and use terms as they apply inside your discipline, that's fine. However, if you're interested in becoming an educated or well rounded horseperson, it's great to understand what the terms mean in their original sense and how they're used in other disciplines. That doesn't mean someone else is wrong when they refer to a WP horse as collected; it just means that they mean it in a limited, discipline specific sense.
     

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