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collection

This is a discussion on collection within the Horse Riding forums, part of the Riding Horses category

     
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        06-20-2010, 11:43 AM
      #31
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by OhSoAppy    
    Her mare doesn't come close to 4 beating.
    Actually your horse has a far better true canter, in spite of you flopping its head back and forth.
         
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        06-20-2010, 06:28 PM
      #32
    Weanling
    As a person just now coming to this thread and wanting to work on some 'collection' myself...might I see if I have my stuff strait?

    Collection is a loosly used word with different meanings in different diciplines, but the dressage meaning is the most traditional and correct one. Engagement and collection are also two different things....

    Currently I believe my horse is engaged...he doesnt over track or have the rounding in the back but he is on the bit and has an active hind, I can feel him using it and driving with it and he isnt heavy on the forehand...so he is enganged and possible connected but not collected because he isnt rounded? Atleast in the dressage sense? Correct?

    Now if we are talking about true collection/dressage collection that means the horse is rounded and tracking up with his butt under him and he is also connected on through the bit and not heavy on the forehand...do I have that about right? In general?

    So if that's true collection then there are also the lesser amounts of collection seen in specific diciplines?

    Such as a hunter who will track up and over track but who usually doesnt have as much of the rounding or any rounding (correct me if im wrong...im not a hunter person)

    Or a WP horse who may track up under themselves and use their hind and be conected and off the fore but who doesnt round or over track...

    So 'collection' in general is dicipline specific but true collection is dressage style collection?

    Also a horse who has a disengaged hind and that is heavy on the fore, and that is above or below the vertical/ just downright not useing themselves properly is not collected...

    Does all of that sound about right to everyone? I think I might actually be getting this but I want to be sure...
         
        06-20-2010, 07:27 PM
      #33
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Pidge    
    Currently I believe my horse is engaged...he doesnt over track or have the rounding in the back but he is on the bit and has an active hind, I can feel him using it and driving with it and he isnt heavy on the forehand...so he is enganged and possible connected but not collected because he isnt rounded? Atleast in the dressage sense? Correct?
    Look at my definition I posted earlier. If it meets that definition then there is collection.

    Quote:
    Now if we are talking about true collection/dressage collection that means the horse is rounded and tracking up with his butt under him and he is also connected on through the bit and not heavy on the forehand...do I have that about right? In general?
    Don't get early collection mixed up with advanced collection. The collection will increase but but it does not become true collection just because the horse has increased its carrying capacity over time and training.

    Quote:
    so if that's true collection then there are also the lesser amounts of collection seen in specific diciplines?
    Again look at my definition, that applies over ANY discipline.

    Quote:
    So 'collection' in general is dicipline specific but true collection is dressage style collection?
    Simple answer is no... look at my previous answer.

    Quote:
    Also a horse who has a disengaged hind and that is heavy on the fore, and that is above or below the vertical/ just downright not useing themselves properly is not collected...
    That is correct for it does not meet the even loading requirement nor has it given up its body fully to the rider.
         
        07-06-2010, 11:43 AM
      #34
    Weanling
    Ok thank you spyder very helpful...there is just so much typed up on this thread that it became rather confusing...
         
        07-06-2010, 05:34 PM
      #35
    Yearling
    Now I'm getting muddled too! Let me refresh:

    (Spyder quote): In its simplest definition collection is the even loading of weight on all four legs that allows for no resistance to the riders demands and in fact the horse has given its body controls entirely up to the rider.

    That might be a simple definition, but it describes such an extreme state, it would mean practically no one experiences it.

    Unless you consider collection something that comes and goes. I usually think of it as Best Posture, when you're in perfect balance, and yet have the strength and readiness to jump in any direction, right then and there, whatever the rider has in mind. Strangely, the image I keep in mind is the experienced barrel racing horse, who is coiled up at the start, waiting. Once he starts, I guess the collection is lost! In any case, I think the word IS used differently in different sports.
         
        07-06-2010, 07:18 PM
      #36
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Beling    
    Now I'm getting muddled too! Let me refresh:

    (Spyder quote): In its simplest definition collection is the even loading of weight on all four legs that allows for no resistance to the riders demands and in fact the horse has given its body controls entirely up to the rider.

    That might be a simple definition, but it describes such an extreme state, it would mean practically no one experiences it.
    Quite the contrary for what I described is the first stage and is not difficult to attain if you work at it. The difficulty is that the average rider can only discern extremes of movement, gait and posture but a practiced or trained eye can see the slight nuances and shifts that occur and are able to read them like bold letters in a book.

    Quote:
    Unless you consider collection something that comes and goes. I usually think of it as Best Posture, when you're in perfect balance, and yet have the strength and readiness to jump in any direction, right then and there, whatever the rider has in mind.
    Collection does not come and go unless the rider influences that transition. If done on purpose then the horse has given itself up to the rider. If it fluctuates without the riders input then the collection or assumption of collection is flawed.


    Quote:
    Strangely, the image I keep in mind is the experienced barrel racing horse, who is coiled up at the start, waiting. Once he starts, I guess the collection is lost! In any case, I think the word IS used differently in different sports.
    No collection can exist in the horse coiled up waiting for something to happen. By its very nature collection in not present in any horse standing still. Therefore from your description collection cannot be lost since it didn't exist in the first place.

    One more thing...No matter what position you are in, relaxation MUST be present. Any suggestion of tenseness negates the true meaning and FEELING of collection.
         
        07-06-2010, 07:43 PM
      #37
    Showing
    I think the perception of collection is changed by the discipline. Ultimate collection in it's truest form is usually found in the Dressage ring, right? You will very seldom, if ever, find any western horse anywhere that will have the same level of collection. Most people in the western world consider a horse that is on the bit and engaged and pushing off the hind end (like a good reining horse) collected, even if it doesn't necessarily fit the exact definition.
         
        07-06-2010, 08:58 PM
      #38
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by smrobs    
    Most people in the western world consider a horse that is on the bit and engaged and pushing off the hind end (like a good reining horse) collected, even if it doesn't necessarily fit the exact definition.
    Actually I would for it fits my description. May be on a lower scale of collection but by the same token people not in dressage think only the upper level FEI horses exhibit collection but it is there in its earliest stages in the lower levels.
         
        07-08-2010, 02:47 PM
      #39
    Yearling
    The "even loading of all 4 feet" is confusing to me, when I try to understand it with a "lower scale of collection." Does the lower scale mean a little more on the forehand, or even-loading but not as "together" or engaged? I don't see any lower-level horses that are perfectly balanced on 4 legs, as you describe; not when ridden. The barrel horse I described was actually pretty calm, he was very experienced, in his twenties. He could do a neat little piaffe, he really wasn't excited (except when he finally took off). A baroquish-looking little QH. If he wasn't collected, what would you call it? (I didn't think this topic would start me re-thinking things, thanks for bringing it up!)
         
        07-08-2010, 07:06 PM
      #40
    Banned
    Even loading on all four legs is a requirement that must be satisfied to start into an advanced state of collection.

    Collection cannot start for the meaning of this term is that the horse is straight and only a straight horse can continue on farther into collection. It is from here that you will see the more advanced stages of collection when the load shifts farther back and the horse now has the balance and power to place its hind legs farther under its body and you can see piaffe's with the lowered hindquareters.

    Remember only a straight horse has the harmony and balance within itself to be at the beck and call of the rider's wishes. I just find that most people still don't understand straight and how it is the basis to build your further training. You see thread after thread here that the rider is saying the shoulder is popping out, or they can't work one side or the horse leans...all are problems with straightness/even loading. It gets more frustrating when they say I have collection but the horse is stiff on one side.

    I could easily go to each thread and post "Your horse is crooked".
         

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