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collection again

4K views 14 replies 6 participants last post by  regardinghorses 
#1 ·
gosh I think I'm starting to hate this topic haha

I can get Sonny to have the nice curved headset, and in the right position, but it's the rounding of the back that I can't get. I can't seem to do it on any of the horses, neither Sonny nor the lesson horses. His back still appears to be hallow.

How can I get Sonny to round his back and move his hind quarters more? I know it will take time, but as of now I'm stuck on how to do it.

Also another question, I've always been told that collection will cause a horse to naturally curve his head under and have a good headset...but looking at western horses, obviously they don't have their heads where say a dressage horse would have theirs.
Are those western horses still collected?

For example

^^She looks rounded in the back, but no head set...but when I asked on another forum, and they said that with collection comes the curved head


But not on this dressage horse, he has the head set, but not the rounded back.

I'm so confused! Most dressage horses I see have the curved head/neck, but not the rounded back...where as with western horses it's the opposite...the back is rounded, but no headset.[/list]
 
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#2 ·
Well having a rounded back and deep hocks is often just a trait of the horse. It can take months of intensive riding to get a horse to properly lift it's back that otherwise wouldn't do it. My horse is an example of this. And after you get it rounding it's back, you have to constantly maintain it.

I wouldn't worry about all that crap about collection and headset and rouding. It's more about movement, and what comes naturally to your horse.

This is the only way to really visualize it --

Here is what happens when a horse rounds it's back.

This would be why pleasure horses should have a rounder back. It improves the topline and gives them that suspended look which will allow them to move flatter and smoother.

This is the opposite.

As you can see, this is somewhat like what the dressage horse you posted is doing. It's head is in a position that requires a more hollow back. Also, the position of it's hind legs would suggest a more hollow back as well. Though, I wouldn't call this a problem. It's just that a hollow back serves the position of the dressage horse better than a rounded back would.
 
#3 ·
so then Sonny, if I stick with dressage, is correct when he has the headset, but not the rounded back?

Also, if I switch back to western riding, and do possibly competitive trails or some other western stuff, would I particually need the rounded back? How would I go about achieving the rounded back?

Well I've heard from many people, including my instructor and my best friend that having a horse not collected can cause a sway back in their older years...where as a horse that collects himself will have less of a sway back if any. I definately don't want Sonny to have a sway back (but then again what happens will happen)...so I thought that dressage work might help with that.

Thanks for the input, Tim!!! The pictures helped explain alot also
 
#9 ·
This is a quote of my response to your post in the critique section:

okay...I am wondering if your trainer is clear on all of the elements of collection? I am not the best to explain it...I can feel it, see it, and slightly describe it, but there are others on here who might be able to give you a very clear explanation.

One of the things that I have learned is that when starting out in working toward collection...getting the head on vertical is NOT the major focus.

You really have to get the horse moving with steady/balanced impulsion (impulsion being basically focused and controlled drive, not just all out speed). Your horse should be driving from behind, his back should be slightly rounded, he should feel light and very maneuverable on the forehand, you should feel like you are riding just ever so slightly uphill.

Your horse does have to learn to be soft and supple on the bit to achieve this. One way to get his body into a collected frame is to (once he is soft on the bit) keep a light contact, or ride doing half halts, and while doing so use your legs and seat to drive his body forward. Imagine that you have faced him into a wall and then someone takes his bum and pushes the back legs/hips forward into a powerful position while shortening the overall length of the horse just a bit (varies depending on what you are doing). This would cause his back to round, and his front to become lighter. the front feet being lighter will help him be able to more quickly and accurately perform various maneuvers. Depending on your horse, your legs may have to work very hard to achieve the drive needed to create this... my horse has very low natural impulsion, so I am constantly driving with my seat and legs when I want performance with effort. Smile

when you have the body, you can then worry about finishing off the head. That is not to say that your horse should not take a steady soft contact willingly. You need him to accept your contact in order to drive his back end into it. Otherwise you will have a horse with a bent head whose body is sort of just running through the bit when drive is added. In the pictures, that is more of what appears to be going on.

sorry to sound like a broken record, but the serpentines video exercise I posted is great for softening to bit and for the horse learning balance, rhythm, and self carriage. When you put all of those together, you basically have a horse that is collected. http://www.horseforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=7552

I learned it for the purposes of reining, but the premise behind it will carry over to any discipline. It is a John/Josh Lyons method that was taught to me, that I am just a big fan of.

Other good activities for working on collection are half halts, spirals, and circles (done correctly). Also, I think that hills and low jumps can be helpful because they strengthen the hind and give the horse and rider the feel for the horse working off the hind. Smile

Keep working at him - he will be fabulous at it in no time. Smile I knew of and wanted to achieve collection for a long time, but really could not put my finger on what it was until I was all of a sudden working my horse collected, when all of the pieces just sort of fit together. When I am not really working at it, my horse feels like his front feet are full of bricks during his stops, turns, and gaits. When I get everything working together though, it feels great. Smile

I hope my novel was helpful in some way for you.
There are many additional ways to work on collection, but I have to go at the moment. :) Others may have some great exercises for you too. :)
 
#10 ·
the problem with pushing Sonny on with my legs and seat is that he's REALLY sensitive about my cues. And any little thing will drive him faster. So I'm working on desensitizing him a little bit so he won't speed up into a canter when I don't want him to.

I do use half-halts to get him to keep his headset and to maintain a fairly good temp for his gaits
 
#13 ·
SonnyWimps said:
the problem with pushing Sonny on with my legs and seat is that he's REALLY sensitive about my cues. And any little thing will drive him faster. So I'm working on desensitizing him a little bit so he won't speed up into a canter when I don't want him to.

I do use half-halts to get him to keep his headset and to maintain a fairly good temp for his gaits
Coming from the perspective of a horse that is very hard to get impulsion from - I do not reccomend trying to desensitize to your legs. His sensitivity just means that you probably don't need spurs or other aids and that you will not have to drive as hard. To achieve the impulsion you need, you should drive him forward to some extent...you just have to work with him that it doesn't mean canter.

I cannot emphasize enough that the serpentines will help with that! if you have a problem with your horse rushing when your drive, or at other times, serpentines will help. Turning small like that (in the serpentines), will pevent him from cantering (unless he is truely collected).

whatever exercises you use, drive to achieve impulsion and soft, well recieved bit contact are major factors in collection.

give the serpentines a try and see if you can't keep him from canterng. Also, in the serpentines, you only add drive after you pick up inside rein contact and he doesn't drop his head. Once he drops, you remove drive. From the sound of it, you wont need much drive. You may have to turn you turn into a circle and go round several times before he drops his head though. The more you do serpentines, the more you will notice he picks up a steady, rhythmic, and balanced pace.

AK showgirl rides my gelding, and rides english, where I ride western, and I suggested to her to drive him out of his serpentine turns into more of an extended trot to work on pace variation also. :) That could be fun too.
 
#15 ·
At least for an English horse, the headset comes as a result of the collection ... a rounded back, impulsion, reaching under with the hind end. The collection is not a result of the headset. However, the aids for getting both work hand in hand. Both can be a result of the combination of driving your horse forward and using half halts.

Keep in mind that dressage horses couldn't move the way they do if they didn't round through their backs and move properly. It's just a different look of the topline between dressage and western because of the varying headsets. Their backs don't always look round because they swing up and down with the movement. The important part, like others have said, is that your horse carries himself and is well balanced and fluid.
 
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