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end of my patience with this nag.

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        08-16-2011, 10:22 PM
      #31
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bsms    

    4 - Frustration doesn't help. If your horse is getting intense, YOUR intensity needs to lower. My daughter's instructor describes it as the Rule of 10: Horse & Rider should add up to 10.

    5 + 5 is great. If the horse is 3, the rider needs to be 7. If the horse is 9, the rider needs to go to 1.
    I love this, I've never heard it explained like that before, but it is so true.
         
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        08-17-2011, 03:43 AM
      #32
    Weanling
    I'm sorry you are having such a hard time! I posted something very similar a couple of weeks ago.
    Very similar issues. In my case, I had lessons on three other horses who were fantastic and really showed me how to be a better rider.
    Then, since they were sold, I ended up on a wicked mare who did nothing but fight me the entire time.

    I know what you mean about spending your time fighting the horse and not progressing with your riding. I don't believe that means in any way you want a push button horse. It means you want a horse that responds to your cues. How the heck are you supposed to know if your cues are correct if the horse responds to none of them?

    I feel sorry for a lot of lesson horses. I'm sure they hate their job. But I hate spending that much money for a lesson and doing nothing but fighting.

    I'm doing well on my wicked mare, but you have to be a "hard" rider on her, which I don't care for. I miss the other horses that I was riding that I could make stop by deepening my seat. I hardly used my hands at all. This horse requires some serious force to stop. I feel like my riding is less pretty and more harsh.
    I miss the slight squeeze it took to make the other horses move. This mare needs kicking....hard.
    I'm still learning. But I will definitely ask to switch horses once they get a new lesson horse.

    I do NOT believe that there are no bad horses only bad riders. Where did that come from? There are certainly bad horses out there. Horses who would sooner run you into a tree than take you for a ride. There are seasoned experienced riders who get rid of horses that aren't working for them.
    So are only the pros allowed to decide a horse isn't working for them? A beginner is not allowed to say, "Hey, me and this horse aren't clicking. Next."

    Then there are horses that are "bad" but only for certain owners. Owner sells them to a new home and the horse is an angel. So there can be bad horses and there can be horses that are bad for certain riders.
    I believe if a person is in the earlier stages of riding, it's of the utmost importance to get a good horse. Not the perfect horse. Just a horse you can trust and one who listens. Not a lazy, burned out lesson horse who lives to evade work.
    And not all lesson horses hate work. My other three seemed to enjoy riding. Or at least tolerate it.

    If this poster came here stating that every single lesson horse sucked, I'd say it was her, not the horse. But what is wrong with a rider of any level deciding a particular horse isn't working for them?
         
        08-17-2011, 03:53 AM
      #33
    Weanling
    Btw I don't mean my post to sound snarky. I just feel bad for the op that people seem to be blaming her for the horse misbehaving. Even the best of riders will have a horse act up on them through no fault of their own. I don't know why someone who is a beginner would be blamed for a horse's behavior? (honest question)

    Oh and forgive me seraphina if you aren't a beginner! I'm just assuming.
         
        08-17-2011, 06:27 AM
      #34
    Showing
    Seraphina is a novice by her own words. As such, she is blaming the horse for being a problem when she is the only one having a problem yet not admitting that she could have any part in it aside from not being able to have a whip.

    IMO, reading back on her posts in other threads and on this one, she doesn't have the experience. - I've read her blaming a horse for lameness, or the wrong saddle - never her riding. She has an instructor who should, again IMO and based on this thread, be more involved with the problem and either gave her a different horse to work with or the instructor has a purpose that we are not getting.

    In the vast, vast majority of horses with problems, it stems back to the rider - especially a novice rider. When a horse is "bad" only for one rider - it is the rider. Beginners do not have the experience to actually know how a really good horse feels and why another horse doesn't feel the same way. They may think they do but most have not yet had that "ah ha" moment when it comes together. Too many new riders are not yet horsemen but want to be or think they are because they know the terminology. That only comes from a great deal of experience. That being the case, always blame the rider not the horse until someone much more capable can tell the difference.

    I'm an experienced rider and I've gotten rid of a fair share of horses that didn't work for me. In my case the horses either didn't have the ability I was looking for or the disposition I needed - (but I've got a lifetime of riding horses and ownership for over 30 years). That can't always be seen with just a couple of rides while trying out a horse. The difference here is that the OP is a beginner and as such, doesn't have the experience to know the difference.

    Can a novice rider have a horse that doesn't work for them? Certainly, but you don't come on here calling the horse a nag and if it were theirs, they would send it to slaughter.

    This is all my 2 so take it for what it's worth to you.
         
        08-17-2011, 07:15 AM
      #35
    Weanling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by iridehorses    
    Seraphina is a novice by her own words. As such, she is blaming the horse for being a problem when she is the only one having a problem yet not admitting that she could have any part in it aside from not being able to have a whip.
    Who put the burr under your blanket? Have you actually read the rest of the thread, or did you stop with your response to the original post? Especially the parts where I talked about how this horse is considered to have bad manners on the ground for everyone?

    I didn't say that I have no part in this other than not having a whip, and from your first post back to me, it was clear that you'd fixated on the whip and made a bunch of assumptions that I thought I should have one, which I didn't, and I pointed this out to you.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by iridehorses    
    IMO, reading back on her posts in other threads and on this one, she doesn't have the experience. - I've read her blaming a horse for lameness, or the wrong saddle - never her riding. She has an instructor who should, again IMO and based on this thread, be more involved with the problem and either gave her a different horse to work with or the instructor has a purpose that we are not getting.
    When have I blamed a horse for having a bad saddle fit? Go back and look at the title of that thread - asking if it's the rider, the saddle, or the horse. Go back and look at the last post in that thread, as well, where I concluded it by saying that the issue was a combination of saddle fit and issues coming up from the lameness, and and that the instructor had taught me how to deal with it by using an advanced (her words) technique with my seat.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by iridehorses    
    In the vast, vast majority of horses with problems, it stems back to the rider - especially a novice rider. When a horse is "bad" only for one rider - it is the rider.
    Again, what part of "this horse has bad manners on the ground for everyone" and "farrier hates working on it" says that I am the only one with problems riding this horse?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by iridehorses    
    Beginners do not have the experience to actually know how a really good horse feels and why another horse doesn't feel the same way. They may think they do but most have not yet had that "ah ha" moment when it comes together. Too many new riders are not yet horsemen but want to be or think they are because they know the terminology. That only comes from a great deal of experience. That being the case, always blame the rider not the horse until someone much more capable can tell the difference.
    Now you're rolling a bunch of your assumptions together, and ignoring what I said about the instructor being aware that this horse gives trouble. What makes you think that I'm trying to come off as a more experienced rider than I am? I've been perfectly clear this whole time that I'm a novice.

    I have been dealing with this horse's bad manners for FOUR MONTHS. I have already BEEN through the "maybe this is my fault" thing, more times than I can count. I have been through it with my instructor, who has said, and I quote "Usually it's something the rider is doing, but this is 90% the horse."

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by iridehorses    
    I'm an experienced rider and I've gotten rid of a fair share of horses that didn't work for me. In my case the horses either didn't have the ability I was looking for or the disposition I needed - (but I've got a lifetime of riding horses and ownership for over 30 years). That can't always be seen with just a couple of rides while trying out a horse. The difference here is that the OP is a beginner and as such, doesn't have the experience to know the difference.
    FOUR MONTHS OF TWICE-WEEKLY LESSONS DOES NOT COUNT AS A "COUPLE OF RIDES". And while I am a novice rider learning English, I have been riding horses on and off for 35 years and grew up around them.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by iridehorses    
    Can a novice rider have a horse that doesn't work for them? Certainly, but you don't come on here calling the horse a nag and if it were theirs, they would send it to slaughter.

    This is all my 2 so take it for what it's worth to you.
    Since you evidently didn't bother to read anything in the OP other than the word "whip" and immediately went off the deep end with your assumptions (many of which are not substantiated) and judgmental attitude, and have offered no actual advice, your $0.02 is not worth much to me. If you weren't clear on the situation, which it is obvious that you were not, you should have asked a few questions to get a better idea of what was going on before jumping all over me.
         
        08-17-2011, 07:28 AM
      #36
    Showing
    You are welcome take it as you like. Plenty of advise was given to you by many members. BTW, I did read the thread all the way through and my opinion hasn't changed. Some of it pertained to you and some were general statements of my opinion - do with it as you will or ignore it - your prerogative.

    Oh, and bad manors on the ground doesn't necessarily mean in the saddle.
         
        08-17-2011, 07:36 AM
      #37
    Weanling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Heelsdown    
    I'm sorry you are having such a hard time! I posted something very similar a couple of weeks ago.
    Very similar issues. In my case, I had lessons on three other horses who were fantastic and really showed me how to be a better rider.
    Then, since they were sold, I ended up on a wicked mare who did nothing but fight me the entire time.

    I know what you mean about spending your time fighting the horse and not progressing with your riding. I don't believe that means in any way you want a push button horse. It means you want a horse that responds to your cues. How the heck are you supposed to know if your cues are correct if the horse responds to none of them?

    I feel sorry for a lot of lesson horses. I'm sure they hate their job. But I hate spending that much money for a lesson and doing nothing but fighting.

    I'm doing well on my wicked mare, but you have to be a "hard" rider on her, which I don't care for. I miss the other horses that I was riding that I could make stop by deepening my seat. I hardly used my hands at all. This horse requires some serious force to stop. I feel like my riding is less pretty and more harsh.
    I miss the slight squeeze it took to make the other horses move. This mare needs kicking....hard.
    I'm still learning. But I will definitely ask to switch horses once they get a new lesson horse.

    I do NOT believe that there are no bad horses only bad riders. Where did that come from? There are certainly bad horses out there. Horses who would sooner run you into a tree than take you for a ride. There are seasoned experienced riders who get rid of horses that aren't working for them.
    So are only the pros allowed to decide a horse isn't working for them? A beginner is not allowed to say, "Hey, me and this horse aren't clicking. Next."

    Then there are horses that are "bad" but only for certain owners. Owner sells them to a new home and the horse is an angel. So there can be bad horses and there can be horses that are bad for certain riders.
    I believe if a person is in the earlier stages of riding, it's of the utmost importance to get a good horse. Not the perfect horse. Just a horse you can trust and one who listens. Not a lazy, burned out lesson horse who lives to evade work.
    And not all lesson horses hate work. My other three seemed to enjoy riding. Or at least tolerate it.

    If this poster came here stating that every single lesson horse sucked, I'd say it was her, not the horse. But what is wrong with a rider of any level deciding a particular horse isn't working for them?
    Thanks, Heelsdown. I remembered you having a problem like this, and how frustrating it was for you. I know what you mean about how unpleasant it is to have to be a hard rider. I was astonished (and a little appalled) when my instructor told me to boot this guy the first time. And I told her yesterday that it bothers me to have to use the degree of force I do with his mouth. For a while, she was having him ridden in a cavason to see if that helped his responsiveness - I think it worked, but not well enough to keep the cavason. (not sure that's how it should be spelled, it's this cross-piece thing that attaches to the bridle and goes over his nose).

    Riding this guy wasn't "fun" at the start - with him, it's never really been a question of "is" he going to misbehave but "when" and "how" is he going to misbehave. But it was valuable in teaching me that with some horses, you have to really stay one step ahead of them and look for that stuff, and cut it off before it has a chance to get started.

    Riding him taught me that with some horses, at least, if you let them get away with one little thing, it can cause a huge amount of hassle in very short order. With him, the "one little thing" starts as soon as he sees you coming. He's such a hassle for everyone to round up in the pen that the barn had gone, for a while, to throwing his food in his shed and just penning him up in there to make him easier to catch. That seemed to have the effect of making his behavior worse, though - on those days, he is 2x the PITA in the ties that he usually is, to the point where I wondered if it wouldn't just be easier to let him out and let him play his "you can't catch me" game.

    For most of this time I've asked myself "How am I contributing to this?" and sometimes I have been - he was yanking the reins early on because I hadn't yet learned to keep my hands still - but mostly, the teacher tells me, that what I'm doing wrong, for lack of a better word, is not staying on top of his crap fast and hard enough. She's constantly giving me different ways that I can do that (stay on top of it) but, as I mentioned above, these things usually work effectively once on him, and then lose their effectiveness pretty quickly thereafter. He's gotten to be an expert at avoiding the aids over the summer. His ground manners have always been terrible, and he's always been really challenging in terms of constantly being on the look-out for an opening to exercise some kind of bad behavior, but he wasn't this difficult to ride in June.

    So, as a couple of people pointed out above, it looks like he needs to get some retraining, but it's not my job to do that, especially not as a novice, and especially because he's not my horse. I hate throwing in the towel and saying "I just can't ride that guy" but honestly, riding him is mostly just exhausting and frustrating. It hasn't been any fun at all in nearly a month. It wasn't until I rode the other horses that I realized just how tiring and not-fun it is.
         
        08-17-2011, 07:44 AM
      #38
    Weanling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by iridehorses    
    You are welcome take it as you like. Plenty of advise was given to you by many members. BTW, I did read the thread all the way through and my opinion hasn't changed. Some of it pertained to you and some were general statements of my opinion - do with it as you will or ignore it - your prerogative.

    Oh, and bad manors on the ground doesn't necessarily mean in the saddle.
    Yes, and the people who gave me actual advice have been thanked for it in the public forum. You, on the other hand, have misrepresented my own words, dragging them out of context and putting a completely inappropriate interpretation on them, and presenting them publicly to other individuals. You've clearly made a bunch of judgments about what kind of person I am, and you've gone searching for evidence that you felt supported those judgments, and you've ignored the evidence that doesn't. This is rude and abusive, and I really expect better from the moderator of a group.
         
        08-17-2011, 08:26 AM
      #39
    Green Broke
    I do have a couple of suggestions for you. If this is my horse here is what I would do:

    1.) Get out of the arena and on to the trails. Working on all the same things but in a new environment and you may find that you have a re-invigorated horse. I LOVE using trails for working on leg yielding exercises and find that the horse enjoys it too.

    2.) Lose your stirrups. Drop those legs around his belly and work on getting crystal clear aides. Ask, tell, demand. Crisply and decisively.

    3.) You love riding, so try to keep that in mind when your horse is not responding in the way you want. Instead of thinking "Argh I can't stand it when he does XXX" think "Hmmm, how else can I ask, huh what a puzzle."

    I have been training horses for a number of years and if there is one thing I can tell you, it's that when you point one finger at your horse you are pointing three fingers back at yourself. Horse riding is the one sport that requires constant self assessment and of the brutally honest kind. Let me give you a sample of what is running through my mind as I am riding:

    "You lost your shoulders, roll them back..... Stop looking at his head, it won't fall off..... Where has my lower leg gone?.... Raise your hands they have dropped too low..... More inside leg you're losing your bend..... Argh now you've lost impulsion, push him on......"

    Constantly.

    Every two seconds I am trying to correct a different mistake I am making. That is WITHOUT another pair of eyes on the ground telling me all the OTHER things I am doing wrong! So don't worry, we are all on a course of constant self assessment and correcting mistakes that we are making. The horse however never makes a mistake, they are a reflection of our riding.

    I can see you are a little defensive but let me give you some insight as to why some of us are defensive: Many of us have been riding and training for years, I myself have been doing it for 15 years and that is nothing compared to many of my fellow members. If there is one thing that really irks me, and I suspect anyone else that has trained/re-trained horses for others over a period of time, it is hearing a person blame their horse for ANYTHING. Many of the posts I believe were trying to illustrate this point to you and in type it perhaps it came across a little harsh. Take it as you will but rest assured that no-one is trying to offend you, they are just coming from the other side of the fence.

    ETA: And good luck! I hope you rediscover that passion!
    pintophile and nicole25 like this.
         
        08-17-2011, 08:49 AM
      #40
    Showing
    Sarafina, I told it the way I read it based on your posts. If want to hear what you want to hear and think the rest is rude, than that is what you will take form the forum. Good luck to you in your lessons and I hope you heed some of the advise you've been given.
         

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