Horse taking over - Page 18 - The Horse Forum
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post #171 of 200 Old 06-28-2011, 04:52 AM
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Ok, so getting kicked was not your fault. (I never said it was, simply that is is most of the time people get kicked.) But your horse was either afraid or in pain or otherwise distressed. Please do some research in horse psychology. A horse doesn't have the mental function to think out meanness. He was being a horse, reacting in a defensive manner. I mean, you know these are prey animals, right? Anything that upsets them, they strike out. You were in the horse's blind spot. He was distressed. He saw a blur behind him. He struck out. End of story. This is so basic. It wasn't meanness. It was defensiveness. Same with the person who got thrown. The horse got upset by something and you were in the way. That is the risk we all take. Do you know a horse can smell something three miles away. Most of what upsets a horse remains a mystery to us. But they do not have the neurology to calculate meanness. If you do some real reading and not just Horse Illustrated, you will learn how a horse works.

(I don't know if I understood those two ACCIDENTS correctly, but my response stands as far as what drives a horse to strike out.)

Last edited by DSJ46; 06-28-2011 at 04:57 AM.
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post #172 of 200 Old 06-28-2011, 04:56 AM
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He is the head of the spanish riding school in Vienna, Austria. I believe his methods are used to train the lipizanner stallions? Extreme high school & disciplined methods, also used in the training of the horses for Cavalia.
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post #173 of 200 Old 06-28-2011, 05:01 AM
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All right, Waresbear! ; ) She knows her Podhajsky! Excellent!
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post #174 of 200 Old 06-28-2011, 05:07 AM
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Not really, just heard it the local news when Cavalia was opening in Vancouver, they interviewed the choreographer. He was talking about the training methods and how it took 10 years to train the horses and he mentioned him.
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post #175 of 200 Old 06-28-2011, 05:16 AM
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Cool! Podhoksky is a classic. Anyone serious about a horse should read him.
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post #176 of 200 Old 06-28-2011, 05:49 AM
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Now, here before I go to bed, I am going to offer just a bit more science. (And this is real...not just me, but you can't get this kind of stuff reading Horse Illustrated. You have to read real equine science books.)

There are three types of animals:

Prey animals: horses, sheep, cows, etc. They do not attack just to do harm. Unprovoked attack would be foolish for a prey animal because it puts them more at risk (think about that hard). They will attack if they feel threatened. A prey animal is not programmed to attack out of aggression, only when they feel threatened. To do otherwise puts their life at risk, since prey animals are vulnerable in a fight to start with. This is a deeply ingrained instinct. IF YOU SEE A PREY ANIMAL STRIKE OUT, IT FEELS THREATENED BY SOMETHING, WHETHER YOU SEE IT OR NOT. There is also some dominance behavior within the herd. It cannot be mean, and it is not senselessly aggressive. To do so puts its life at risk.

Predators: wolves, dogs, big cats, small cats. They will attack to kill. They attack prey animals. They are programmed to do this. They do it mainly for food or, for domesticated predators, because of the instinct to seek meat for food. This is deeply engrained. Predators cannot be mean, though they can be preemptive in their aggression. This is so they never go hungry and because they often have to compete with each other for food, and because they have the instinct to do so.

Higher Predators: Humans. They can be mean. They can be evil. They have big forebrains. They have a prefrontal cortex and a corpus collosum which processes moral decisions and higher thought processes lower animals do not have. They do not function much on instinct, but rather on calculation, thus, allowing them to be mean WHEN THEY DECIDE TO BE. Decision, not instinct, is key here. You need a big forebrain to make complex moral decisions or to act nice or mean. Humans can become mean when things do not go their way or if others do not agree with them or sometimes simply for the joy of meanness. If you want an example of how human meanness can manifest in such a fashion, check on pages 15 and 16 of this thread, particularly the posts by Macabre and Heartprints.

Last edited by DSJ46; 06-28-2011 at 05:55 AM.
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post #177 of 200 Old 06-28-2011, 07:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSJ46 View Post

A HORSE CAN NOT BE MEAN. A horse cannot kick you maliciously.
This screams right back at you that your experience with a large quantity of individual/different horses is very lacking.
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post #178 of 200 Old 06-28-2011, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by horsedreamerforheartland View Post
I have a horse, Max.
I bought him about 7 months ago and ever since, have been losing control of him. He has started kicking when I touch his feet and because i'm not confident and he knows that, I won't go near his feet much anymore especially his back ones. Another problem is that he won't leave his other horse friend and is reluctant to pay any attention to me or move without his friend.
Today I went riding and he kicked every time I came near him because he knew I wouldn't go near him. I think he is getting worse and worse, soon he may be a disaster. He also bucks when you try to canter him and because his quite lazy, I don't think he wants to canter. I think he has learnt to buck when I want canter so I will stop. I don't know how to fix this, but I know its mostly because my lack of confidence. I just want him to trust me so we can have one of those great relationships like most people say they have. If anyone has any tips I would be grateful.'He has only ever been a trail riding horse.'
He needs a strong leader and unfortunately, you are lacking in that department. Do you understand why he is behaving the way he is? There is a reason why. If you do not understand his behavior, you will not be able to act accordingly to correct it and be his leader. Ground manners are important. If they do not respect you on the ground, they will not respect you in the saddle. If a trainer is not in your cards, then placing him with a more experienced owner would be doing both you and your horse justice. Learn from this. I personally would not wait any longer to make a decision. Your horse is is steadily regressing which makes it more difficult to bring him back, and you may end up getting injured. I wish the both of you well.

Last edited by goneriding; 06-28-2011 at 08:14 AM.
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post #179 of 200 Old 06-28-2011, 09:55 AM
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I tell you what, this has become one of the most entertaining threads I've read in a long time.

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post #180 of 200 Old 06-28-2011, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by DSJ46 View Post

Yeah, I got ticked off at some point by the obtuseness (sorry if this word is obscure) of some of you all, but I always had a clear argument and facts. You all just insult when you can't come up with a decent argument. (Macabre, and Heartprints, especially you.)

Page 12. It's all there.
I am sorry that I insulted you. That truely was not my intent.
I am glad that you are knowledgable and have a great understanding of the ways of horses. It is an advantage to all if used correctly. Since you know that many people aren't as studied as you, sharing the information is wonderful, but you have gone about it in the completely wrong way. As a student, you would have been a teacher that I never really understood because your "lesson" has just gone in circles and the more frustrated you have gotten, the more unclear the message has become. The few times you have gone back and said "All I wanted was for the OP to just...." was a chance for the followers to get back on the train, but then you went back to chasing rabbits and nothing was accomplished. I understand that it would be a much better world for the horses if everyone knew the science behind it, but the sad fact is that many don't and many will never. You are just going to have to come to that realization. You can help change that fact by sharing your knowledge, but we all need to find a better way of communicating.
It seems to me that if you exerpt all the "fluff" from this thread, it boils down to the fact that everyone gave the OP thier best advice that they knew how to give. Each person is an individual and has a different experience to back up thier opinions, that does not make them stupid or wrong. Just different from yours.
One thing that my friend studying all this said was that she sees a severe lack of trust of people on your part (I wont get into all the psychology here that she did) Also that you use information/facts (IE-textbooks) to build a wall of defence against opinions. (The psychology on this is that an opinion cannot be debated by a fact and vise versa. Fact is recreatable or tangable, an opionion is mearly an emotionly based idea. The two cannot be compared apple to apple, this is an apple to orange argument.) Another thing she sees goes hand in hand with the lack of trust of people, which is finding an outlet in horses and making it a cover for some issue that you have with people (this borders on obsession, learning all that you can from every provable, scientific fact so that it cannot be proven wrong or taken away from you. To you this makes people stupid, with ridiculous ideas, or incompetent; in turn, feeding your distrust of people and opposing ideas.)
Again, I am not trying to insult you, this is coming from a licensed professional counselor (her disclaimer - she wouldn't be able to make an accurate assesment of any person without speaking to them one on one, this is just from whats seen here.)
This thread, as interesting as it has been, as because just a show of flexing muscles. Since the OP has left us all, I believe its time to just call it quits. I hope to see you, DSJ, on other threads spreading you knowledge to others, but please try to do so less defensively. Let people have thier own opinions. On a public forum like this, the best thing to do is to let each person say thier piece, give the best advice you can give from you experience, and move on to the next thread. This thread has become a great example of poor communication. All we ALL wanted to do was help the OP, and we managed to run her off completely. Did we accomplish anything for HER??? I hope so.


... Thank you for reading this fully if you did take the time ....

One is closer to God's heart on a horse than anywhere else on earth!
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