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post #21 of 200 Old 06-23-2011, 01:31 PM
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This is not a safe horse for you at all and prolly never will be BUT give him a chance with a trainer cuz with his behavior, you sell him, he's more than likely gonna be dogfood. You never know, maybe an experienced horse person's guidance will make all the difference in the world, stranger things have happened and I am hoping this is true in this case. I hate our disposable world at times.
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post #22 of 200 Old 06-23-2011, 08:57 PM
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This can certainly be a safe horse for you if you get the proper help and put in the proper time. There are no bad horses, only mishandled ones.
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post #23 of 200 Old 06-24-2011, 11:55 PM
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Originally Posted by iridehorses View Post
Welcome to the forum!

I am of a different opinion. If I was in your position, I would sell the horse and look for one that will build my confidence rather then shake it. While it is very true that both you and Max need some professional help, it is also common for riders (especially newer ones) to over horse themselves then spend time, money, aggravation, and putting themselves in danger trying to correct the mistake they made.

Too many riders buy a horse for the wrong reasons (not knowing how you acquired your horse, this may not apply to you). They buy the first horse that looks like their ideal vision or they were given the horse, or it was a rescue, and so on. Sometimes you have to look really hard at the situation and admit that the horse would be better off in the ownership of someone more advanced.

I recently bought a mare, Bonnie, that is one of the best trail horses I've ever owned - and I've owned many. She came to me because her former owner couldn't handle her and ended up with a broken wrist because she felt she had to bail off her when they were heading home and couldn't control Bonnie. I've never had a single problem with her except that she has to know her rider is in charge. If she does not have the confidence in her rider, she takes full advantage of them. My point is that Max may be the ideal horse for someone, but not necessarily for you at this point. Take your time and build your confidence with a horse that will work for you.

I second everything said ^^here^^. There are too many good horses out there to risk getting hurt on one that you already know you can't handle. I also second getting the help of a professional or someone much more experienced (no matter what horse your working with). Take some lessons somewhere and build your confidence first. Then worry about your horse. As far as the comment about the kill pens, I did a thesis over this subject and there are less horses being bought for slaughter now than ever before. The truth is that there are just more horses out there that are not being taken care of instead of being sold to slaughter. . . but this is all off subject! Go get your self a trainer, get someone else to at least teach your horse his ground manners, then sell him and find one more suitable for your level.

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post #24 of 200 Old 06-25-2011, 12:12 AM
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Originally Posted by DSJ46 View Post
I am also going to add this, because I have read it in several places, and it is always true, but especially in this economy: every time you break your committment with a horse and sell him, especially with "he was too much for me; he acted up; he kicks, bucks, rears," etc., you are exponentially increasing his chances of ending up in a kill pen. You can't believe how fast even a successful racehorse can end up in a horrid place if it changes hands often enough.

Get help, and stick by this horse. You obviously had some attraction to him to start. Focus on that. Work with someone good. Put in that daily committment it takes to own a horse (yes, it does!), and get him and yourself in shape for this. You can do it if you really want to, and for the horse's sake, do it.
You know, DSJ I usually like your posts... but I completely and totally disagree with this one. Even if (IF!!!!) the horse ends up in the kill pen, it's better than the OP being severely injured or killed. That's an extreme situation.
I'm not happy that you'd play on someone's emotions and fear of death for a horse in this way to get them to stay with a horse that is too much for them.
If the OP can't get professional help, they should not endanger themselves by working with a horse who knows he has the upper hand, and is already displaying some dangerous behaviors. I would refer you to my post "Playing the Hero" as to my thoughts on this situation. If a horse is kicking, rearing and bucking and you don't know how to deal with it, and cannot get help, the horse has to go - if it is truly a dangerous horse that you cannot sell to a person QUALIFIED to deal with the horse's issues (not selling to just anyone) - I don't have a problem with a truly dangerous horse being PTS.
I don't think the horse should be offloaded on the first person with fifty bucks, BUT there must be a line where one says "I cannot do this alone, I cannot get help, so I must part with this horse."

Dusty and Olivia, that can be very dangerous advice - you don't go around "patting" the legs of a horse that kicks - that will not stop a horse from kicking, and he won't just stop kicking because you've been gentle with his legs patting and brushing them. A horse most certainly CAN buck while on a lunge.

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post #25 of 200 Old 06-25-2011, 12:14 AM
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Well I read everyones opinions and I am going to assume you want to keep him. So first step try and separate from the buddy. So he focuses back on you. Stop trying to saddle until you have good control on the ground. Try Clinton Anderson training. It works. Takes time. But it works. Good luck.
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post #26 of 200 Old 06-25-2011, 03:28 AM
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I just read an article in Horse Illustrated a few months ago that said in this economy horses going to kill pens are increasing. I have also worked rescue and could quote you some facts there too, Dressage. The rescues are all full (a lot due to people who quit on horses), and even horses rescued by the state from bad places end up put down because there is no place for them to go. Have seen this too. Don't say I am playing emotions. These are facts. You sell a horse, especially one who is steadily acquiring a bad reputation, and you are probably selling him off to death. And frankly, I think we need a little more emotion. "I outgrew my horse, so I am selling him." "My horse can't work or win me ribbons anymore, so I am selling him." "I don't want to make the effort with a less than a dream horse, so I am selling him." Bah. These are not lawn mowers. They are sentient, feeling beings. Stick with it, and get the help you need and get yourself in shape to deal with this horse. Don't bail on your committment just because it got hard. No one is saying "be a hero" or do something stupid and get hurt. But there is always something that can be done. And if you made the committment only on the terms that the horse be just right for you right away, you need to stay completely out of horses. In the end, all horses are difficult at times and potentially dangerous. Anyone not confident or competent enough to deal with that needs to get a lap dog.

Last edited by DSJ46; 06-25-2011 at 03:35 AM.
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post #27 of 200 Old 06-25-2011, 03:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Dusty and Olivia View Post
Your rite it is mainly your confidence. but ifyou stop going near his legs yur leting him win. when he wins he will become more dominate. and dominate horses like to get more and more so untilthey control you.try going to the sides of his legs (so e cant really kick you) and just pat them or softly brush them. that way he will think that your not doing any thing bad. he should like it. i know my horse does. he should stop trying to kick you after a while too. As for the cantering and bucking. get him to canter then if he starts bucking turn him to a fence or turn him in a circle and he will stop. keep doing so until he gets bored with trying to buck you off and does as you tell him to. if this does not work get some one to lunge you, and canter alot on the lunge. because he cant really buck while hes lunging. as for your horse not paying any attention to you, try keeping him in a different paddock to his friend(if you can) and catching him just to play, pat and brush him sometimes. that way you will spend time with him and will want to spen and pay more attention to you.

i am so sorry if none of this works, but hopefully it will. good luck with your horse.

Please do not follow this advise, it is not sound advise and will likely get you hurt. Possibly very hurt.

I am sorry that you are having this issue, but I totally agree with others, you need the help of a trainer or more experienced person. Your horse will continue to get worse and worse and he is in charge, and he knows that you don't have the confidence to correct or take charge. Horses are much like toddlers, they learn quickly that if they throw a tantrum in the grocery store and get candy, then you can expect a tantrum next time you are there. Your horse will continue to walk all over you until you learn more so that you can take control back.

If I were you, I would stop trying to work the horse, and just turn it out while you spend some time finding someone who can help you. A few weeks of not being handled is a lot better than you being seriously hurt.

There is no pride lost in having a trainer, almost all the top level riders do!
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post #28 of 200 Old 06-25-2011, 03:46 AM
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And just a side note about horse behavior. ANY horse will "take over" someone who allows it to happen. So if this one ran you over, so will the next one eventually--maybe not as fast, but if you can't be leader in ANY herd, you don't have what it takes to have a horse. You get help and learn to deal with this one (again, no one is telling you to run in alone and play the hero). "I can't afford help." Then you can't afford a horse. These are not pleasant things, but dealing with a 1,300 pound bundle of potential dynamite (and any horse is on any given day) takes something more than a lot of people have. You have to decide whether you have it or not.
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post #29 of 200 Old 06-25-2011, 03:49 AM
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And I can't believe these people going against what Dusty and Olivia said! She is dead on in regard to horse behavior! You get afraid and back off, the horse dominates, and like I said before, if you are afraid of any horse, you don't have the stuff to have one, because any horse will eventually take advantage of your timidity. NOT saying do it alone. Get help. Educate yourself as much as you can. But D&O is right. (Alex, your toddler analogy is perfect; I have a four year old, and they are just like little horses.) People spend far too much time worrying about the finer points of riding form (and yeah, mine's for crap) and things like that and neglect basics of horse behavior, and that's where people get into trouble.

Last edited by DSJ46; 06-25-2011 at 03:58 AM.
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post #30 of 200 Old 06-25-2011, 04:19 AM
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Ok, you can tell I am very passionate on this issue. (And being accused of playing emotions when I am simply stating facts of horse behavior and what happens to labelled horses burned me.) So here I go some more...

Here is the original post in essence:

"I have a horse, Max.
I bought him about 7 months ago and EVER SINCE [my emphasis--this is a process, not a bad horse!], have been losing control of him. He has started [didn't start this way!] kicking when I touch his feet BECAUSE I'M NOT CONFIDENT AND HE KNOWS THAT [emphasis mine]..."

I mean, there it is. The owner of this horse said it loud and clear: "the horse is not the problem. I am. He was ok when I got him, and my mishandling wrecked him." Refer to my past posts. If you are not confident and competent enough to deal with a 1,300 pound toddler (thanks, Alex) whose tantrum can send you flying through a wall, get a fish and a bowl. ALL horses will become Max if you don't have confidence. This is a hard fact. You are the problem, and not the horse. Get YOURSELF in shape, but don't start through a chain of buying and selling because of your problem.

(I think we spend too much time here patting people on the head and saying what they want to hear when a lot of people need to hear: "maybe you just don't have the stuff or want to make the effort to get it.")

Last edited by DSJ46; 06-25-2011 at 04:27 AM.
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