Keep your head high horsey! - Page 3 - The Horse Forum
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #21 of 36 Old 11-06-2008, 08:57 PM
Showing
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posts: 11,772
• Horses: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by SonnyWimps View Post
JDI, a horse can learn by itself to carry himself properly without us interfering. Yes for a long time they might carry themselves wrong....but there will ALWAYS be that time when the take off with themselves properly carried and it will hit them "OMG it's easier for me to carry myself this way!"

Personally, I'd rather have my horse be able to realize it's easier for him to carry himself and have him be able to do it himself, them having me to constantly remind him.
I'd rather "interfere" (as you put it) and show my horse the way to travel properly and get them schooled right off the bat. Why? Because, as Spyder said, horses are inherently lazy. I do not know many horses that would "figure it out."
No, they do not ALWAYS go "OMG it's easier to carry myself this way" because it's not. Generally it's really hard for them to carry themselves properly because their muscles are not trained to do it. It will be hard and they will use new muscles and it will hurt for the first little while because it's a new sensation.
Just like for humans - like I said, 99% of us do NOT carry ourselves properly! And if you try to correct it, it's going to be hard work!! Believe me, I've been there! I had a physiotherapist work with me for months to get me to walk "properly" and it was hard. (Now it's easy... but it took a lot of muscle training.)
I would love to meet a horse that was all "omg, I'm going to carry myself right without being taught" because that is very rare.
This is why you have to school them to carry themselves properly. And yes, I agree, a well-schooled horse should carry itself properly without you having to do anything, but to get to that stage takes a LONG time. But once the horse is well-schooled to carry itself properly, you should be able to toss away the reins and have the horse maintain balance and a frame, and impulsion from the hindquarter.


The lovely images above provided by CVLC Photography cvlphotography.com
JustDressageIt is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #22 of 36 Old 11-06-2008, 11:15 PM
Weanling
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 579
• Horses: 1
Jehanzeb- I understand what you are going through. The very first horse I rode in January held her head low, she was a western horse and carried her head like one. This horse was a SPECTACULAR lesson horse, and let me tell you, this horse was stubborn and hard to motivate. This horse was very slow aswell, so it gave the beginner ride a good feel for the horse.

This horse would not trot unless you were ABSOLUTELY sure you wanted to trot. If you had one thing wrong then she would not trot (perfect for beginner riders). THis horse MADE me get in the right position and MADE me ask correctly before she trotted or loped.

Jahenzeb, I think the horse you are riding is fine. I would suggest that you let this horse have a loose rein. When you pull back (even the slightest) it will cause the horse to either stop or slow down "easy up".

I don't know if your trainer is having you use Direct reining or indirect reining, but put your hands on the withers. This will stop you from pulling back.

Thanks,
Brandon

I love my horse. She is the wind beneath my wings.

John 3:16 (READ THIS PLEASE!)

Last edited by Brandon; 11-06-2008 at 11:17 PM.
Brandon is offline  
post #23 of 36 Old 11-07-2008, 12:42 AM
Showing
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posts: 11,772
• Horses: 0
Great post Brandon, and a perfect exmaple :)


The lovely images above provided by CVLC Photography cvlphotography.com
JustDressageIt is offline  
post #24 of 36 Old 11-07-2008, 06:35 AM Thread Starter
Yearling
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Gloucester
Posts: 1,346
• Horses: 0
Brandon I agree with you and yes I have experienced the same as when I joined the equestrian centre they gave me the laziest and stubborn horse in this planet. Who wouldn't walk fast let alone trott until you kick him too many times.

Though the horse I tried last time was even stubborn then the one before.

I do agree that lazy and stubborn horses are best for teaching however when you have 45mins of struggle in 45mins of lesson (shared with 3 other people who are running faster around the arena because of good horses) then you don't have much choice other than complaining/or keeping yourself quite and hope the lesson ends asap.

Anyhow, to be honest I don't compare myself with others as I believe you have some good days some bad days. Additionally I am and will be learning at my own pace so why care what others say or do.

I have noted all of your (you all) suggestions and will def try them in my next lesson if I get the lazy bum again!

Regards

2 -Jehanzeb- 2

If something's HARD to do, then its NOT worth doing!
Jehanzeb is offline  
post #25 of 36 Old 11-07-2008, 07:46 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: New York
Posts: 2,672
• Horses: 1
Not all horses are lazy...yes some are...but defiantely not all.
Forcing the horse in order to "school" them to carry themselves properly isn't the right thing. Look how tight that rider has her reins (in the dressage picture).
SonnyWimps is offline  
post #26 of 36 Old 11-07-2008, 08:36 PM
Weanling
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 579
• Horses: 1
In my opinion, you are turning the lesson into a "Bad" one. Of course, I have OFF days, but then I check everythin i am doin and work on them. What you need to do is when this horse does not want to go for you, you need to do this "kick, slap with reins on shoulder, cluck" all at the same time and you may have to do it acouple of times. I bet i could get on that horse and make him lope, because the horse i told you about that i rode who was really stubborn and gave me hell all the time.. I MADE her lope, and I MADE her do what I requested.

simply kicking the horse harder, is not enough (and not the proper way) to make her go. Like i said above, "kick, slap with reins on shoulder, and cluck" that should get her goin.

Try that and see if that helps you, or request another horse (even though I think thats the easy way out, and i personally wouldn't do that).

THanks,
Brandon

I love my horse. She is the wind beneath my wings.

John 3:16 (READ THIS PLEASE!)
Brandon is offline  
post #27 of 36 Old 11-07-2008, 09:01 PM
Showing
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posts: 11,772
• Horses: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by SonnyWimps View Post
Not all horses are lazy...yes some are...but defiantely not all.
Forcing the horse in order to "school" them to carry themselves properly isn't the right thing. Look how tight that rider has her reins (in the dressage picture).
Like I said, most horses WILL NOT figure out how to carry themselves properly - believe me, I see a lot of them every day - horses in their teens, even twenties, that have been ridden (not in a frame) most of their lives, and whaddayaknow, they don't carry themselves properly (in a frame) - why? Because it's hard at first!!
There might be the odd few that have a lightbulb moment, but that is exceedingly rare.
And as for the rein comment - it's "contact".. english riders always maintain contact with their horse's mouths; we are not pulling nor being "mean" to the poor horsie but maintaining contact for finesse.
I think that making a horse carry you (general you) around for hours on end doing schooling without being in a frame or attempting a frame is hard on a horse.
My gelding would definitely be more than happy to go all day looking like a camel with his head up high in the air, but it's not good for his back, hence why I work him in a frame.
Most horses like to travel like this:
English:

(AND she has contact!! Yikes!)
Western:


When they should travel like this:

(slightly behind vertical.)





The lovely images above provided by CVLC Photography cvlphotography.com
JustDressageIt is offline  
post #28 of 36 Old 11-08-2008, 10:33 AM
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: New York
Posts: 2,672
• Horses: 1
As many have said before the only way to build a topline is to work in the proper frame? Then explain why at least 10 (if not more) of the horses at the stables where I ride has great toplines yet the owner rides them the same as I do...no contact and not making them collect. If working in the proper frame is the ONLY way to get a horse to build a topline, then they must be carrying themselves in the proper frame at least some of the time to get the topline.

Sonny went from having zero topline to a fairly decent one...we definately are not done with building it up...he still needs more, but he definately has a better one than he did.
So what exactly was I doing differently? Well before I'd use contact on the reins and push him forward to get him to round his back and carry himself properly.
Now, he does whatever he wants with his head providing he doesn't stop and look at me for food hehe...he carries his neck and head where he wants to, he carrys his back the way he wants to....yet how come his topline is building?

A horse should be responsible for looking where it's going, going to where it's supposed to be (like the rail or towards a jump, etc), be able to maintain the gait without the rider constantly nagging on them to keep it (yes this takes training and me and Sonny defiantely don't have it down....well at least not in the trot...canter possibly though) and learn how to carry themselves.
Sonny is defiantely not in the best of shape. He's overweight (because winter is coming), he lost alot of his muscles in his back legs (slowling gaining back).

I guess I'm more into NH than anyone here and maybe I'm the only one seeing results in the way I like to do things...which doesn't really surprise me if that is the case.


Brandon, OMG I rode a horse like that the other day. Gosh did he hate me (I felt bad cause I loved that horse lol). It took me 10 minutes to get on his back, then more to trot, then to canter lol. The way I got him to go was...he liked to go to the gait lol so I'd ask when we were on the side of the gait then continue around lol
SonnyWimps is offline  
post #29 of 36 Old 11-08-2008, 11:40 AM
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 5,526
• Horses: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by SonnyWimps View Post
As many have said before the only way to build a topline is to work in the proper frame? Then explain why at least 10 (if not more) of the horses at the stables where I ride has great toplines yet the owner rides them the same as I do...no contact and not making them collect. If working in the proper frame is the ONLY way to get a horse to build a topline, then they must be carrying themselves in the proper frame at least some of the time to get the topline.

Sonny went from having zero topline to a fairly decent one...we definately are not done with building it up...he still needs more, but he definately has a better one than he did.
So what exactly was I doing differently? Well before I'd use contact on the reins and push him forward to get him to round his back and carry himself properly.
Now, he does whatever he wants with his head providing he doesn't stop and look at me for food hehe...he carries his neck and head where he wants to, he carrys his back the way he wants to....yet how come his topline is building?

A horse should be responsible for looking where it's going, going to where it's supposed to be (like the rail or towards a jump, etc), be able to maintain the gait without the rider constantly nagging on them to keep it (yes this takes training and me and Sonny defiantely don't have it down....well at least not in the trot...canter possibly though) and learn how to carry themselves.
Sonny is defiantely not in the best of shape. He's overweight (because winter is coming), he lost alot of his muscles in his back legs (slowling gaining back).

I guess I'm more into NH than anyone here and maybe I'm the only one seeing results in the way I like to do things...which doesn't really surprise me if that is the case.
Sonny I am NOT into Parellism and NEVER will be. I could have answered your post on this thread

Head up too high....how to correct?

But I find that Parelli followers are so fanatic that I just won't waste my time in responding to them anymore. What you see in your eyes is different to what I will see and we will NEVER meet.

You said your horse was bored in the other thread and now you say it is overweight. Winter is coming where I am and my horse is not overweight, he is FIT and that was brought about by me MAKING him fit. He is not bored in spite of having to be out alone in his paddock, because I make things interesting. He does not crib or stall walk or weave or any other such things. Why ? I would like to say because I don't have him doing mindless "games" with no other purpose than to see that he can follow a carrot stick !

You have your opinion of dressage horses and their training.

I have my opinion of "parellism" and its "training"

Is your horse as bored as this one?

Spyder is offline  
post #30 of 36 Old 11-08-2008, 12:57 PM
Weanling
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 579
• Horses: 1
Allie, I have a question. I am, honestly, not very knowledgable about "the topline" but my nana carries her head maybe just abit higher than her withers. Is my nana carryin her head properly? I have actually never really worried or thought about it. I mean, she seems to do fine other than her need for speed attitude lol.

If she is not carryin her head properly, how would i fix it? I mean, i obviously don't put use contact, soooo I am just a bit curious.

I love my horse. She is the wind beneath my wings.

John 3:16 (READ THIS PLEASE!)
Brandon is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the The Horse Forum forums, you must first register.

Already have a Horse Forum account?
Members are allowed only one account per person at the Horse Forum, so if you've made an account here in the past you'll need to continue using that account. Please do not create a new account or you may lose access to the Horse Forum. If you need help recovering your existing account, please Contact Us. We'll be glad to help!

New to the Horse Forum?
Please choose a username you will be satisfied with using for the duration of your membership at the Horse Forum. We do not change members' usernames upon request because that would make it difficult for everyone to keep track of who is who on the forum. For that reason, please do not incorporate your horse's name into your username so that you are not stuck with a username related to a horse you may no longer have some day, or use any other username you may no longer identify with or care for in the future.



User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.


Old Thread Warning
This thread is more than 90 days old. When a thread is this old, it is often better to start a new thread rather than post to it. However, If you feel you have something of value to add to this particular thread, you can do so by checking the box below before submitting your post.

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Head up too high....how to correct? SonnyWimps Horse Training 54 11-12-2008 01:50 AM
holding head high nldiaz66 Horse Training 5 10-15-2008 03:10 PM
Crazy head!!! Help for a horse with 'head raising probs'???? trot-on Horse Training 20 09-18-2008 12:29 AM
How high to jump??? :? BluMagic Horse Training 39 01-01-2008 08:52 PM
Running through the bit - Head up WAY high - Help! BluMagic Horse Training 12 12-01-2007 04:53 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome