Keep your head high horsey! - Page 3
 
 

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Keep your head high horsey!

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        11-06-2008, 08:57 PM
      #21
    Showing
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SonnyWimps    
    JDI, a horse can learn by itself to carry himself properly without us interfering. Yes for a long time they might carry themselves wrong....but there will ALWAYS be that time when the take off with themselves properly carried and it will hit them "OMG it's easier for me to carry myself this way!"

    Personally, I'd rather have my horse be able to realize it's easier for him to carry himself and have him be able to do it himself, them having me to constantly remind him.
    I'd rather "interfere" (as you put it) and show my horse the way to travel properly and get them schooled right off the bat. Why? Because, as Spyder said, horses are inherently lazy. I do not know many horses that would "figure it out."
    No, they do not ALWAYS go "OMG it's easier to carry myself this way" because it's not. Generally it's really hard for them to carry themselves properly because their muscles are not trained to do it. It will be hard and they will use new muscles and it will hurt for the first little while because it's a new sensation.
    Just like for humans - like I said, 99% of us do NOT carry ourselves properly! And if you try to correct it, it's going to be hard work!! Believe me, I've been there! I had a physiotherapist work with me for months to get me to walk "properly" and it was hard. (Now it's easy... but it took a lot of muscle training.)
    I would love to meet a horse that was all "omg, I'm going to carry myself right without being taught" because that is very rare.
    This is why you have to school them to carry themselves properly. And yes, I agree, a well-schooled horse should carry itself properly without you having to do anything, but to get to that stage takes a LONG time. But once the horse is well-schooled to carry itself properly, you should be able to toss away the reins and have the horse maintain balance and a frame, and impulsion from the hindquarter.
         
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        11-06-2008, 11:15 PM
      #22
    Weanling
    Jehanzeb- I understand what you are going through. The very first horse I rode in January held her head low, she was a western horse and carried her head like one. This horse was a SPECTACULAR lesson horse, and let me tell you, this horse was stubborn and hard to motivate. This horse was very slow aswell, so it gave the beginner ride a good feel for the horse.

    This horse would not trot unless you were ABSOLUTELY sure you wanted to trot. If you had one thing wrong then she would not trot (perfect for beginner riders). THis horse MADE me get in the right position and MADE me ask correctly before she trotted or loped.

    Jahenzeb, I think the horse you are riding is fine. I would suggest that you let this horse have a loose rein. When you pull back (even the slightest) it will cause the horse to either stop or slow down "easy up".

    I don't know if your trainer is having you use Direct reining or indirect reining, but put your hands on the withers. This will stop you from pulling back.

    Thanks,
    Brandon
         
        11-07-2008, 12:42 AM
      #23
    Showing
    Great post Brandon, and a perfect exmaple :)
         
        11-07-2008, 06:35 AM
      #24
    Yearling
    Brandon I agree with you and yes I have experienced the same as when I joined the equestrian centre they gave me the laziest and stubborn horse in this planet. Who wouldn't walk fast let alone trott until you kick him too many times.

    Though the horse I tried last time was even stubborn then the one before.

    I do agree that lazy and stubborn horses are best for teaching however when you have 45mins of struggle in 45mins of lesson (shared with 3 other people who are running faster around the arena because of good horses) then you don't have much choice other than complaining/or keeping yourself quite and hope the lesson ends asap.

    Anyhow, to be honest I don't compare myself with others as I believe you have some good days some bad days. Additionally I am and will be learning at my own pace so why care what others say or do.

    I have noted all of your (you all) suggestions and will def try them in my next lesson if I get the lazy bum again!

    Regards
         
        11-07-2008, 07:46 PM
      #25
    Banned
    Not all horses are lazy...yes some are...but defiantely not all.
    Forcing the horse in order to "school" them to carry themselves properly isn't the right thing. Look how tight that rider has her reins (in the dressage picture).
         
        11-07-2008, 08:36 PM
      #26
    Weanling
    In my opinion, you are turning the lesson into a "Bad" one. Of course, I have OFF days, but then I check everythin I am doin and work on them. What you need to do is when this horse does not want to go for you, you need to do this "kick, slap with reins on shoulder, cluck" all at the same time and you may have to do it acouple of times. I bet I could get on that horse and make him lope, because the horse I told you about that I rode who was really stubborn and gave me hell all the time.. I MADE her lope, and I MADE her do what I requested.

    Simply kicking the horse harder, is not enough (and not the proper way) to make her go. Like I said above, "kick, slap with reins on shoulder, and cluck" that should get her goin.

    Try that and see if that helps you, or request another horse (even though I think that's the easy way out, and I personally wouldn't do that).

    THanks,
    Brandon
         
        11-07-2008, 09:01 PM
      #27
    Showing
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SonnyWimps    
    Not all horses are lazy...yes some are...but defiantely not all.
    Forcing the horse in order to "school" them to carry themselves properly isn't the right thing. Look how tight that rider has her reins (in the dressage picture).
    Like I said, most horses WILL NOT figure out how to carry themselves properly - believe me, I see a lot of them every day - horses in their teens, even twenties, that have been ridden (not in a frame) most of their lives, and whaddayaknow, they don't carry themselves properly (in a frame) - why? Because it's hard at first!!
    There might be the odd few that have a lightbulb moment, but that is exceedingly rare.
    And as for the rein comment - it's "contact".. english riders always maintain contact with their horse's mouths; we are not pulling nor being "mean" to the poor horsie but maintaining contact for finesse.
    I think that making a horse carry you (general you) around for hours on end doing schooling without being in a frame or attempting a frame is hard on a horse.
    My gelding would definitely be more than happy to go all day looking like a camel with his head up high in the air, but it's not good for his back, hence why I work him in a frame.
    Most horses like to travel like this:
    English:

    (AND she has contact!! Yikes!)
    Western:


    When they should travel like this:

    (slightly behind vertical.)



         
        11-08-2008, 10:33 AM
      #28
    Banned
    As many have said before the only way to build a topline is to work in the proper frame? Then explain why at least 10 (if not more) of the horses at the stables where I ride has great toplines yet the owner rides them the same as I do...no contact and not making them collect. If working in the proper frame is the ONLY way to get a horse to build a topline, then they must be carrying themselves in the proper frame at least some of the time to get the topline.

    Sonny went from having zero topline to a fairly decent one...we definitely are not done with building it up...he still needs more, but he definitely has a better one than he did.
    So what exactly was I doing differently? Well before I'd use contact on the reins and push him forward to get him to round his back and carry himself properly.
    Now, he does whatever he wants with his head providing he doesn't stop and look at me for food hehe...he carries his neck and head where he wants to, he carrys his back the way he wants to....yet how come his topline is building?

    A horse should be responsible for looking where it's going, going to where it's supposed to be (like the rail or towards a jump, etc), be able to maintain the gait without the rider constantly nagging on them to keep it (yes this takes training and me and Sonny defiantely don't have it down....well at least not in the trot...canter possibly though) and learn how to carry themselves.
    Sonny is defiantely not in the best of shape. He's overweight (because winter is coming), he lost alot of his muscles in his back legs (slowling gaining back).

    I guess I'm more into NH than anyone here and maybe I'm the only one seeing results in the way I like to do things...which doesn't really surprise me if that is the case.


    Brandon, OMG I rode a horse like that the other day. Gosh did he hate me (I felt bad cause I loved that horse lol). It took me 10 minutes to get on his back, then more to trot, then to canter lol. The way I got him to go was...he liked to go to the gait lol so I'd ask when we were on the side of the gait then continue around lol
         
        11-08-2008, 11:40 AM
      #29
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SonnyWimps    
    As many have said before the only way to build a topline is to work in the proper frame? Then explain why at least 10 (if not more) of the horses at the stables where I ride has great toplines yet the owner rides them the same as I do...no contact and not making them collect. If working in the proper frame is the ONLY way to get a horse to build a topline, then they must be carrying themselves in the proper frame at least some of the time to get the topline.

    Sonny went from having zero topline to a fairly decent one...we definitely are not done with building it up...he still needs more, but he definitely has a better one than he did.
    So what exactly was I doing differently? Well before I'd use contact on the reins and push him forward to get him to round his back and carry himself properly.
    Now, he does whatever he wants with his head providing he doesn't stop and look at me for food hehe...he carries his neck and head where he wants to, he carrys his back the way he wants to....yet how come his topline is building?

    A horse should be responsible for looking where it's going, going to where it's supposed to be (like the rail or towards a jump, etc), be able to maintain the gait without the rider constantly nagging on them to keep it (yes this takes training and me and Sonny defiantely don't have it down....well at least not in the trot...canter possibly though) and learn how to carry themselves.
    Sonny is defiantely not in the best of shape. He's overweight (because winter is coming), he lost alot of his muscles in his back legs (slowling gaining back).

    I guess I'm more into NH than anyone here and maybe I'm the only one seeing results in the way I like to do things...which doesn't really surprise me if that is the case.
    Sonny I am NOT into Parellism and NEVER will be. I could have answered your post on this thread

    Head up too high....how to correct?

    But I find that Parelli followers are so fanatic that I just won't waste my time in responding to them anymore. What you see in your eyes is different to what I will see and we will NEVER meet.

    You said your horse was bored in the other thread and now you say it is overweight. Winter is coming where I am and my horse is not overweight, he is FIT and that was brought about by me MAKING him fit. He is not bored in spite of having to be out alone in his paddock, because I make things interesting. He does not crib or stall walk or weave or any other such things. Why ? I would like to say because I don't have him doing mindless "games" with no other purpose than to see that he can follow a carrot stick !

    You have your opinion of dressage horses and their training.

    I have my opinion of "parellism" and its "training"

    Is your horse as bored as this one?

         
        11-08-2008, 12:57 PM
      #30
    Weanling
    Allie, I have a question. I am, honestly, not very knowledgable about "the topline" but my nana carries her head maybe just abit higher than her withers. Is my nana carryin her head properly? I have actually never really worried or thought about it. I mean, she seems to do fine other than her need for speed attitude lol.

    If she is not carryin her head properly, how would I fix it? I mean, I obviously don't put use contact, soooo I am just a bit curious.
         

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