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Turning off of outside rein/leg and seat, help

3K views 12 replies 7 participants last post by  jaydee 
#1 ·
So, this topic has kind of sprung out of a discussion on another thread, but also my own riding experience. I haven't been able to get a straight answer anywhere it seems and since I don't have the means to have an instructor right now I thought I'd ask here (specifically in the general riding forum, so hopefully more people will see it!) :blueunicorn:

Anyway, I have come to realize lately that Nav has some holes in his training, probably a lot due to my general inexperience... He is tricky to ride and very evasive, has a lot of tricks to get out of work. I have been dealing with a straightness/bending issue lately where he doesn't want to properly bend for me. This is coming after approximately two months off due to lameness, and prior to it he was not noticeably against bending left, though that is his weaker direction. I'm not sure why it started.

I've been working a lot on suppling him and bending and having good warm ups so we have the best chance at success. I noticed during my last two rides that he is not really moving into my outside rein and definitely not bending off of it! He bends to the inside contact. I tried an exercise where I put a lot of slack into the inside rein to see if he would keep bending or at least keep tracking around and almost immediately he turned to the right (the outside) and started going that way.

I don't think I have a good grasp of inside leg to outside rein. I know my inside leg should be asking him to bend, outside leg keeping the hindquarters from drifting, and outside rein should be an anchor or wall for him to work into. But it doesn't really seem to work on him? Maybe he is dull to the leg. Though he tends to speed up when leg goes on, even when asking to move laterally. When I was taught (back in the pony club days) "inside leg to outside rein", I was riding a very nice horse who kind of took care of me and she did what I needed her to almost without asking. Nav is not so trained so that's why we're running into problems.

Ahh, I know this is long so I'll wrap it up here. I've posted a bit about this in my journal but hope I can get some more input from a stand alone thread. Let me know if I need to clarify!
 
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#2 ·
Always remember: The horse will move away from pressure.

If you keep that in mind, it clears things up. :)

So, if you want him to bend around your inside leg, what you are really doing is using your leg pressure to "push" his ribcage away from you. Then if you need to, you can use your outside leg forward to push the shoulders away from the outside leg, or use your outside leg backward to push the hindquarters away from the outside leg ..... effectively asking the horse to "bend around" the inside leg.

Then for your outside rein to "steady" the horse, you are still using the neck rein pressure to "push" him away from that rein, but you are only applying it lightly so you more are just "holding" him in place.

Does that make sense?

Just remember your horse should always move the particular body part away from pressure.
 
#3 ·
So, this topic has kind of sprung out of a discussion on another thread, but also my own riding experience. I haven't been able to get a straight answer anywhere it seems and since I don't have the means to have an instructor right now I thought I'd ask here (specifically in the general riding forum, so hopefully more people will see it!) :blueunicorn:

Anyway, I have come to realize lately that Nav has some holes in his training, probably a lot due to my general inexperience... He is tricky to ride and very evasive, can you describe in what other ways he is evasive? has a lot of tricks to get out of work. I have been dealing with a straightness/bending issue lately where he doesn't want to properly bend for me. This is coming after approximately two months off due to lameness, and prior to it he was not noticeably against bending left, though that is his weaker direction. I'm not sure why it started.

I've been working a lot on suppling him and bendinghow do you do that? static, or moving? and having good warm ups so we have the best chance at success. I noticed during my last two rides that he is not really moving into my outside rein and definitely not bending off of it!sorry, I don't understand 'bending off the outside rein' you mean turning away from it? He bends to the inside contact. I tried an exercise where I put a lot of slack into the inside rein to see if he would keep bending or at least keep tracking around and almost immediately he turned to the right (the outside) and started going that way.

I don't think I have a good grasp of inside leg to outside rein. I know my inside leg should be asking him to bend, outside leg keeping the hindquarters from drifting, and outside rein should be an anchor or wall for him to work into. But it doesn't really seem to work on him? Maybe he is dull to the leg. Though he tends to speed up when leg goes on, even when asking to move laterally. When I was taught (back in the pony club days) "inside leg to outside rein", I was riding a very nice horse who kind of took care of me and she did what I needed her to almost without asking. Nav is not so trained so that's why we're running into problems.

Ahh, I know this is long so I'll wrap it up here. I've posted a bit about this in my journal but hope I can get some more input from a stand alone thread. Let me know if I need to clarify!


I am going to propose a slightly different way to think about this. I'm sure it will sound odd.
a horse will usually go where he is thinking about going.

well, duh! that's obvious, right? but, you will often see people riding horses where they are pulling or pushing the horse one way, and the horse is either going the other, OR, he is going the way indicated by the rider, but only because the rider holds him there with a strong rein and strong legs. the horse is looking with ears and eyes and mind to go the other direction, and will do so as soon as he physically can. his mind is far away from anything the rider is asking. he never truly is ON the inside rein at all, so you can't really get him honestly ON the outside rein in the way you want, with that slight position to the inside.

the outside rein is meant to support and limit the horse's bend. so, the bend is encouraged with the inside rein. the outside rein is relatively passive, but it helps to keep teh horse from falling out, nor overbending inward.

where I get into trouble with folks is when I say that the horse's willingness to follow the 'idea' of the inside rein is just as important. meaning, his mind has to be with you and your suggestion of 'bend this way please' on the inside rein.

so, just for some fun, try using your inside rein a bit, without any influence from teh outside, to see if he resists that direction, (was it Left?), or, goes that way but continues leaning against it and thinking toward the other direction. look for him to turn his mind also that way. you watch his ears and eyes to see that change. look to see how little you can eventually do that really gets him "ON' the rein, first. THEN you can bring in the outside rein as a support.

if the horse is reverting to a counterbend the instant you have a totally slack inside rein, then , to me, that means he never really WAS mentally on the bend of the inside rein.
it's also possible that your outside rein is too limiting for him , for now, and too 'solid'. it's hard to have one rein (the inside ) be super light and actively suggesting an inside bend, while the outside is more passive but supporting. folks can easily find themselves with an outside rein that becomes so heavy that it no longer 'breathes' with horse's movement at all. the horse will really hate to be ON such a rein.
 
#4 ·
So, first I am assuming that you are riding two handed, in a snaffle, as that sounds where he should be at
Like Beau said, we each horses to move away from pressure
Horses also naturally follow their shoulders, not their nose,until we teach them to follow that nose with their entire body, in the correct bend
You do not want your horse to move into the outside rein, but rather away from it This is the way I teach a western horse to move off that outside rein, and it really translates perfectly, for me, when I eventually ride that horse two handed, riding English, although there might be slight nuisances that apply to being very discipline specific
So, in the beginning, you use that snaffle, riding with two hands, having the horse turn off of the direct rein, using legs as needed, to make him follow through with his entire body, and in the correct bend. At the same time, you lay the ground work, for that horse to learn to work off of that outside (indirect rein )against his neck, so he learns to connect the two.
You never pull that outside rein past the center of the mane, because if you do so, you are actually cuing him to turn his neck and head in the direction the outside rein is in, and thus the counterbend (see what the bit is doing, when you pull that outside rein to the left, past center of the mane, when asking him to turn left, versus just laying it against his neck.
That is why, esp when still training that horse to work correctly off of that outside rein, you have to use your legs
Basically, either a finished western bridle horse or an English horse, learns to stay evenly between the reins.
Thus, neck step, once the horse is turning well, keeping correct alignment, using the direct rein, backed up with the indirect (outside rein) you start asking with that outside rein first, helping with that inside rein, if needed
Once a horse knows how to move off that outside rein, or the inside rein, for that matter, held up against his neck, while also applying inside or outside leg, you can move a horse in our out, along a rail or in a circle, but the horse has to also learn to move his body correctly as needed, and you need legs for that, not thinking about whether to use inside or outside leg, per say, but to recognize what part is out of aleignment, and fix that, with whatever leg or rein is needed
To try and explain,as to what I am saying, I will use a turn to the left. Depending where the horse is in training, you will indicate direction with either the inside or outside rein, or even a little of both
Then, if the shoulders don't follow, you would use outside (rt leg, slightly ahead of the cinch. If the ribs are hanging in, so the horse is turning like aboard, you would use inside (left leg), to push ribs out, make him bend around your leg.
In either case, you used the learning to move away from pressure

For a western horse, they learn to work off of that indirect rein alone, eventually, ridden one handed
 
#5 ·
Thank you all for the replies, each one has actually helped me out with understanding this better in one way or another. :)

To answer your questions Tiny, he just tries to get out of working when he thinks can. Rather than accept contact he will occasionally duck behind the vertical (though we are getting better at not doing this!), he will get bored and look for things to spook at that have been in the arena all along, will be lazy and lean like crazy on the hands if you let him.. really he probably has quite a few training holes, instead of real evasive techniques. He goes in just a loose ring snaffle and seems happy with it, not looking to make any change there as I'm sure most of the "problem" is something that I'm causing or deficit in.

You do not want your horse to move into the outside rein, but rather away from it
Smilie, for some reason this really clicked with me. So, outside rein is a barrier that the horse won't cross. The outside rein is a pressure (without pulling or anything other than steady contact) that the horse is moving away from, but the inside leg is keeping the horse on the rail (or where ever) and helping ask for bend along with the inside rein.

I'm beginning to think that perhaps part of our poor bend could be due to a physical issue, and am starting to look for chiropractors in the area who could come out and work on him. Like I said before, he was off completely for about 2 months from a lameness (white line) but I think maybe because he was sore for so long he began carrying himself differently to feel more comfortable, and now it's a habit.
 
#6 ·
A horse that keeps looking elsewhere for something to focus on has to be given something more interesting to focus on. oftentimes people pick up a rein, or both reins for a halt, and they put resistance on the rein, which the horse 'meets'. the horse eventually halts or turns, but he does so with resistence, and that's often because he has not let go of his thought to go or be elsewhere.

when you so something to interrrupt that outward focus, and stay with the 'ask' on your rein until he TRULY answers, with body AND mind, then you will often find that the leaning or evasion melts away. most evasion is the horse trying to carry out his thought against your direction to do otherwise. you may get him to sort of do what you want, but he is still mentally way out 'there'.

just riding with an awareness of where his thought is at any one time, and practicing 'getting' his thought on your leg or hand or voice is a good exersize to build sensitivity as to when you are trying to move a stone wall.
 
#7 ·
yes, you have to make a horse focus on you, versus perhaps, looking at a spot to spook at, recognizing when his mind is going elsewhere.
You bring his mind back, but doing some body control exercises that he knows, as sort of a ;wake up call', reminding him you are not just a passenger on his back
Nothing like training a young stallion, in an outdoor arena, where he can see the mares, to soon realize how important it is ,to keep a horse's mind with you
Yes, you have the right idea, Navigator, far as that outside rein not physically doing anything more, far as any bit action,then to either block the horse from running off in that direction,if that is needed, but mainly, for ahorse that has learned, first using the direct rein of the snaffle correctly, to associate that outside rein against his neck, as a cue to move off of it, and why it is called an indirect rein,western.
When you first start training that horse, as I decribed, with the snaffle, that direct rein is more exaggerated, but you work towards keeping both hands closer together, over time, with the horse learning to stay between them, evenly
Western, you just go one step further, by then riding one handed, thus no help with the direct rein, unless you need to pick it up, training, to help the horse
English, you basically keep riding with two hands and a well trained horse just staying evenly between them thus moving off that outside rein, but also still having some help with that inside rein, with very little movement needed with either, as the horse has learned to stay evenly between those reins, while guiding correctly with the rest of his body, using leg aids as needed.
If you are turning left, for instance, and the horse is thinking about going right, in the direction of the out gate, for instance, that is where his shoulder is going, so you need to fix that with both the outside rein up against his neck, and that outside leg, to bump that shoulder back into aleignment.
Just trying to correct that drift tot he right, using the left rein, can have the horse,s head and neck turned left to an extreme degree, yet he can still run off to the right, as a horse goes where his shoulders go
We thus train them to follow their nose with those shoulders and entire body, and why you have to also ride with legs
 
#8 ·
Good answers above.

You might also check where you are looking, shoulders square to the angle you want to go and that your weight is on the correct side.

If for example your weight is on the inside hip, you will be driving your horse into a wider circle regardless of what your reins and legs are doing. Again, pressure.
 
#9 ·
Firstly, realize that all horses do not respond in the same way. The same horse may even respond differently at times to what seems the same influence. Thus, it may be necessary to experiment by making small changes, evaluating the results, and experimenting again.

Reaction to an outside rein may vary due to subtle differences. A slight touch of the rein on the neck may block movement or cause a horse to move in the other direction. Too much tension on the same outside rein may be sensed as a pull and cause the horse to move in that direction to relieve the tension.

Unless otherwise needed, both legs of the rider should remain passive, the outside leg simply being drawn back slightly. The rider’s legs produce pressure on the horse’s sides simply due to the effects of gravity if the rider’s legs are relaxed. The rider’s outside leg acts as a barrier telling the horse to bend its body rather than throw its hindquarters outward. The rider’s inside leg provides the horse something to wrap his body around.

This horse probably has some physical issues, especially if it bends better in one direction than the other. This is common. To address this, consider how your body responds to stretching exercises. If you demand too much, your muscles respond by becoming too tense. It is the same with a horse. Subtle give and take actions on the part of the rider tend to influence the actions of a horse without creating tension that causes resistence.

All exercises work best if both horse and rider are relaxed. Then, simple things like aligning your shoulders and hips as you wish your horse to align his shoulders and hips should influence your horse to do so.

The subtle influences mentioned above should be given in time with the movements of the horse. This is easiest to learn at a walk. For example, any additional pressure of the inside leg should be applied as the horse’s inside leg is rising and moving forward – then, released. Any slight application of pressure on the reins by the fingers of the rider’s inside hand should be applied as the horse’s head moves toward his body and released as the horse’s head moves forward, away from his body.

Remember to experiment, evaluate, and make subtle changes before experimenting again. Your actions may require additional changes as the horse begins to respond and as its physical condition improves.
 
#10 ·
A video would sure help, far as seeing what you are doing with that outside rein
You saying he does not work 'into it', and your experiment, where you left inside rein loose, and I assume, leaving contact on the outside rein, had the hrose turn in the direction of the outside rein(which then became the new inside rein), shows me ahorse that has never gone through the process of learning how to respond to that indirect/outside rein, by that basic education I mentioned
Yes, a horse should turn off of that outside rein alone, ideally, western anyway, but you do need to use legs as needed, to help the horse keep correct bend, to make shoulders follow that turn, to keep ribs from being pushed into turn, and in order to do so effectively, you have to feel what body part is out, in order to decide which leg to use , and when, versus thinking do I need to use inside or outside leg,, in a turn, as it comes down to 'it depends'
 
#11 ·
Thanks all for the comments!

I rode two days ago and just tried to focus on keeping my outside rein steady, doing some give and take with the inside rein, and really using my legs to bend him (he actually bends quite nicely around my legs when I slide my outside leg back - that alone with a little pressure from the inside leg and he will turn fairly quickly and cleanly). He did a good job, though every now and then he would straighten out and be stiff, mostly when we would change direction from going right to going left. And a couple times even when his body and neck felt/looked like he was following the circle, his nose would just point outside instead.

I don't have a good way to get video right now, but I can share my most recent one (about 3 weeks ago). It was shot with a tripod and can be a little hard to see so I don't know how much help it will be. I don't feel like this was a good ride, so you can click through anywhere and get an idea of what we're up to.

 
#13 ·
I personally wouldn't spend so much time just riding around in circles like that, it doesn't give the horse enough to think about.
I find they work better if you add stuff like some figure 8's into your routine, ride a small circle off your large circle and then back into a large circle, ride some serpentines and some spirals to keep his mind engaged. I also like to spend some time doing leg yields, turns on the forehand and rein backs to break the monotony and then go back to the circles
 
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