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Western Dressage - Thoughts ?

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    11-24-2012, 10:02 PM
  #91
Banned
Ok....let's email them a link to this thread.....because I don't have the energy to re-read all of this and condense it all down into an email.....
     
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    11-24-2012, 10:10 PM
  #92
Super Moderator
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muppetgirl    
Ok....let's email them a link to this thread.....because I don't have the energy to re-read all of this and condense it all down into an email.....
You could though it did get a bit 'iffy' in places!!!
I think just lots of short individual emails from everyone who feels strongly about it would have more impact, sometimes new ventures like this profit from input - if no one says anything then they just carry on regardless in ignorance of things that could make a difference.
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    11-24-2012, 10:16 PM
  #93
Started
Amen, sister!!!!!!!!
     
    11-24-2012, 10:21 PM
  #94
Started
Oh for Pet's sake...the Amen, Sister comment was fo Jaydee's comment #80.
I'm getting lost on al these pages...just wandering from here to there. I'll get the hang if it someday.
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    11-25-2012, 07:59 AM
  #95
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by longride    
Slower tempos - there are whole schools of dressage that believe that to get proper collection, the horse must be moving at a slower tempo so the joints have time to compress then rebound.

<snipped>

The passagey trots so oohed and ahhed over today used to be considered incorrect and I don't think they should be a goal for a WD horse..
I get what you're saying LongRide, but I'm positive you didn't remove the impulsion/energy from your horse prior to, or during, your work on collection. You wouldn't have made it to where you're at if you had. I'm not seeing impulsion or energy from the WD currently being ridden. And I don't think they can ever achieve collection by slowing the horse to a jog. It removes the energy, the impulsion, from the gait.

Impulsion as defined by the USDF: Thrust, releasing of the energy stored by engagement. The energy is transmitted through a back that is free from negative tension and is manifested in the horse’s elastic, whole-body movement

The biggest issue with dressage is that you need all the components of the pyramid in order to develop the horse correctly. You can't remove impulsion and ever get to collection... You want relaxation, suppleness, contact, straightness, and impulsion in the training level horse. Of course these will be at very low levels compared to a higher level horse, but the idea has to be there. Then each part is improved upon as you continue to train the dressage horse. The straightness gets better, the contact becomes more consistent, the suppleness increases, etc. Same with impulsion... you start with it at a level your horse can do, and build on it. Asking for a little more, and a little more, each time horse is physically capable of giving more. But you can't ever get collection without impulsion, contact, suppleness, straightness, rhythm.. they aren't independent of each other. You can't remove impulsion.

From USDF:
Quote:
The basics form the correct foundation of the progressive training of the horse, independent of the execution of specific test movements. The basics include: pure rhythm with suitable tempo; relaxation/ suppleness/ elasticity/looseness; correct contact/connection; impulsion, straightness, and longitudinal balance suitable to the level and exercise–in other words, all criteria of the Pyramid of Training/Training Scale.
I don't see impulsion in the WD that is currently being ridden. And I don't see a way that those horse/rider combo's could ever achieve anything resembling collection as defined by USDF. At that point, they're just doing a pattern class on a well trained western horse. But it's not dressage. You can't leave part of the training scale out, and assume you'll get a dressage horse. That's why so many dressage riders can't make it past Second level. Yet, somehow, western dressage will achieve what a great many dressage riders cannot, all while ignoring a basic element in the training scale....? It's not possible.
     
    11-25-2012, 08:03 AM
  #96
Trained
Quote from pg 5.....post from Core

Here are my issues with WD. Bad dressage training is rewarded in WD. If you want to train your western horse in dressage, with a western saddle. Go for it. I would be glad to support you 100% in your efforts. As long as you are honestly attempting to embrace the core concepts of dressage, and to create a happier, more supple horse that uses it's body more effectively, then I say go for it.

Read more: Western Dressage - Thoughts ?

This really sticks in my craw, and admittedly, I have not read many of the posts after-did skim over most of them. What gives you the idea that dressage horses are "happier and more supple" than other horses? Because you think they are? I hate to tell you, but there are MANY happy horses out there doing other things that they love, and there are also many horses that are supple who don't do dressage. This statement by you, Core, goes right back to the elitist attitude of many dressage folks.

It is also called WESTERN dressage. Put the emphasis on the western, and it makes it can be a seperate class, just as ENGLISH reining could be. Have a ball doing the stops and spins in an English saddle, BTW....some of us would pay to see that one. Sort of why they have different classes in many shows....diffferent levels, judged differently.....or, perhaps look at simple pleasure classes. In Morgan shows, "hunter pleasure" is NOT AT ALL like the "hunter pleasure" I grew up with in the traditional hunter shows. Does that mean it is wrong? Nope-just different. Get over yourself. You do not own the rights to the word "Dressage".
     
    11-25-2012, 08:13 AM
  #97
Trained
Have any of you guys commenting actually seen or ridden western dressage at a show or are you just going off of youtube videos ?

I think western dressage is awesome ! It was very fun for me and my horse this summer at shows. I have talked to many dressage judges about western dressage and they tell me they look at the horse and judge them just like an english horse, they are looking for the same things.

It may be called WESTERN dressage, but its DRESSAGE judges, just keep that in mind =]
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    11-25-2012, 08:38 AM
  #98
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by franknbeans    
Quote from pg 5.....post from Core

Here are my issues with WD. Bad dressage training is rewarded in WD. If you want to train your western horse in dressage, with a western saddle. Go for it. I would be glad to support you 100% in your efforts. As long as you are honestly attempting to embrace the core concepts of dressage, and to create a happier, more supple horse that uses it's body more effectively, then I say go for it.

Read more: Western Dressage - Thoughts ?

This really sticks in my craw, and admittedly, I have not read many of the posts after-did skim over most of them. What gives you the idea that dressage horses are "happier and more supple" than other horses? Because you think they are? I hate to tell you, but there are MANY happy horses out there doing other things that they love, and there are also many horses that are supple who don't do dressage. This statement by you, Core, goes right back to the elitist attitude of many dressage folks.

It is also called WESTERN dressage. Put the emphasis on the western, and it makes it can be a separate class, just as ENGLISH reining could be. Have a ball doing the stops and spins in an English saddle, BTW....some of us would pay to see that one. Sort of why they have different classes in many shows....diffferent levels, judged differently.....or, perhaps look at simple pleasure classes. In Morgan shows, "hunter pleasure" is NOT AT ALL like the "hunter pleasure" I grew up with in the traditional hunter shows. Does that mean it is wrong? Nope-just different. Get over yourself. You do not own the rights to the word "Dressage".
Franknbeans, I'm sorry for not being very clear with what I was saying. What I was trying to say is that a correctly trained dressage horse is happier than an incorrectly trained dressage horse. If WD wants to be an offshoot of dressage, but is not currently embracing the correct basics, then you face the risk of creating a confused/frustrated horse when you only incorporate portions of the dressage scale yet expect the horse to continue to move up the levels (WD said they were creating higher level tests).

It wasn't a statement that dressage is better than anyone else. I did NOT mean it in that way. Only that there's good and bad in dressage (I'm only talking about dressage) that can result in either a happy and confident horse, or a cranky, unhappy horse with a very frustrated rider.



About your last paragraph... If anyone wishes to label themselves with the term dressage, or hunter, or reiner, then they should not be a completely different discipline in my opinion. This is just my opinion. Taking a certain disciplines name and altering it to be something else creates confusion.


Side note: can you guys try, maybe, to not take every single thing I posted so personally? I don't hate WD. I don't hate western people. I would help anyone wanting to learn dressage, or wanting to incorporate whatever bits of dressage that they want to into their training. I'm only stating that labeling WD as "Dressage" is fricking confusing the crap outta me since WD doesn't appear to want to do dressage but wants to do a variation of some of the parts of dressage (in their own way). That's fine.. I don't care. I'm saying the name is confusing.

Also, I find a dressage saddle to be the most secure, easiest to stay on, type saddle in the world. I would welcome the opportunity to demonstrate my ability to stay on a reiner doing a spin with my dressage saddle. If you're offering, I'd love to give it a try! :) I don't have an issue staying on horse that decides to suddenly do a 180 at warp speed because the cat jumped out of the rafters in front of it. I know it's not the same... just saying I don't fall off at the drop of a hat like you're implying.
     
    11-25-2012, 09:07 AM
  #99
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by core    
Franknbeans, I'm sorry for not being very clear with what I was saying. What I was trying to say is that a correctly trained dressage horse is happier than an incorrectly trained dressage horse. If WD wants to be an offshoot of dressage, but is not currently embracing the correct basics, then you face the risk of creating a confused/frustrated horse when you only incorporate portions of the dressage scale yet expect the horse to continue to move up the levels (WD said they were creating higher level tests).
I would argue that a [I]correctly[I]trained horse in ANY discipline is happier than an incorrectly trained one. That is certainly NOT exclusive to Dressage.Even tho it seems that dressage riders prefer to think their horses are the only ones who are happy, supple, (choose an adjective.....)

It wasn't a statement that dressage is better than anyone else. I did NOT mean it in that way. Only that there's good and bad in dressage (I'm only talking about dressage) that can result in either a happy and confident horse, or a cranky, unhappy horse with a very frustrated rider. Again-saome is true in ANY discpline.



About your last paragraph... If anyone wishes to label themselves with the term dressage, or hunter, or reiner, then they should not be a completely different discipline in my opinion. This is just my opinion. Taking a certain disciplines name and altering it to be something else creates confusion. So, using my example of a pleasure horse-they should all be the same? Certainly they are not. And I do realize that they are also not judged by the same judges.


Side note: can you guys try, maybe, to not take every single thing I posted so personally? I don't hate WD. I don't hate western people. I would help anyone wanting to learn dressage, or wanting to incorporate whatever bits of dressage that they want to into their training. I'm only stating that labeling WD as "Dressage" is fricking confusing the crap outta me since WD doesn't appear to want to do dressage but wants to do a variation of some of the parts of dressage (in their own way). That's fine.. I don't care. I'm saying the name is confusing. Same with "pleasure", no? There are many kinds, and if you take it our of context it can mean different things to different riders. It IS confusing, when taken out of context, as are most things.

Also, I find a dressage saddle to be the most secure, easiest to stay on, type saddle in the world. I would welcome the opportunity to demonstrate my ability to stay on a reiner doing a spin with my dressage saddle. If you're offering, I'd love to give it a try! :) I don't have an issue staying on horse that decides to suddenly do a 180 at warp speed because the cat jumped out of the rafters in front of it. I know it's not the same... just saying I don't fall off at the drop of a hat like you're implying.
Noone said you do. All I am saying is good luck with that. A reiner is not going to stop at a 180.
     
    11-25-2012, 10:09 AM
  #100
Trained
I don't see where core is complaining about reiners or western riding. If she is arguing that dressage is required for a happy, athletic horse, I've missed it. She is arguing what I would agree with - that dressage is designed to get a horse to be ridden in collected gaits, and that if you skip the foundation that dressage rests on, you will never get to the collected gaits that dressage is designed to create.

Outside of dressage, almost no one desired sustained, collected gaits. The 'collection' used in most riding is not a collected gait. It is a temporary shifting of balance to prepare for something (a jump) or to turn quickly and have power coming out of the turn (barrel racing, cutting). Littauer called that 'gathering', but most riding calls it collection.

I've been accused on many threads of hating dressage, because I deny that dressage is the basis of all good riding. I don't think core has argued that. If I understand her correctly, she agrees with me that dressage is a specific way of training and riding for a specific goal. That doesn't make dressage bad or wrong. It is completely right, if your goal is to ride a horse with collected gaits.

But the fundamental flaw in 'western dressage' is that western riding had a different goal. Most western riders want speed, since western riding has it roots in working cattle, and that often needs speed. Or it requires covering a lot of miles in minimal time with minimal effort so you can arrive at a work site with enough energy to do the job. Dressage ultimately has the horse working very hard so it can move across the ground slowly. That is the opposite of western riding. And it seems the WD folk don't understand EITHER western or dressage well enough to grasp that.

I'm a *******ized rider. That is fine for me & my horses, because I only have two that I ride and they are happy riding with me. But I identify most with the western approach, and I find it offensive when the Western Dressage Association says:

"It is not the goal of Western Dressage to create western horses that compete in open dressage but to create better western horses and riders through the use and principles of dressage." and

"The Western Dressage Association® of America (WDAA) was organized to provide western riders and horses with an educational program which incorporates the principles of lightness into a whole new way of thinking about riding western. Western Dressage helps a rider to improve the horse’s balance, cadence and carriage."

I don't think western riding needs the principles of dressage to create better western horses and western riders. I think the ones we have, trained for cutting, reining, barrel racing, roping, and even a darn good trail horse are ALREADY darn impressive. A cutting horse impresses the living daylights out of me, without ever performing a collected gait. I think it takes a lunatic to claim that good reiners need help to ride a horse with 'balance, cadence and carriage', or that the approach used for teaching collected gaits will result in a cutting horse who cuts better than he already does.

Dressage horses are trained and ridden differently than roping horse because dressage and roping have different goals, and neither is wrong. Reiners aren't ridden like dressage horses because the dressage style of riding doesn't work for a reiner, just as a reining style of riding wouldn't work in dressage.

I'm certain core understands that. I don't think the WD folks do.

BTW - I find the Australian stock saddle to be the most secure. When Mia (my Arabian mare) starts prancing in a wash, I tell folks we're doing "Australian Dressage". Then I look around and hope Kayty didn't hear me...
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