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Western Dressage - Thoughts ?

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  • Evolution of dressage from 1600 to 2000
  • Byzantines vs arabs

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    11-25-2012, 12:57 PM
  #111
Super Moderator
.

I stole this Video from a post in another section by EvilHorseofDoom

Manolo Mendez and Josh Lyons, Sunday Showcase, Equitana-Melbourne, 2012 - YouTube!

I liked the Music

.
     
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    11-25-2012, 01:05 PM
  #112
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernTrailsGA    
.

I stole this Video from a post in another section by EvilHorseofDoom

Manolo Mendez and Josh Lyons, Sunday Showcase, Equitana-Melbourne, 2012 - YouTube!

I liked the Music

.
they were having fun, I'd say and an open mind.......
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    11-25-2012, 01:08 PM
  #113
Banned
Thankyou SouthernTrails....my thoughts in action!
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    11-25-2012, 01:14 PM
  #114
Trained
First, dressage came from the parade ground, not the battle ground. A rider using two hands on the battleground is darn near worthless to the army, and a horse moving with a high degree of collection moves too slow and is too exposed to be useful in battle. But on the parade ground, it looks great.

Second, dressage is not defined as "any riding where a horse uses its rear end". All riding needs the horse to use its rear. That is why horses have big butts. But not all riding is dressage riding.

"People need to stop thinking of dressage as some snooty sport that only belongs to one elite group of people and remember that its the oldest form of modern day riding that we have and pretty much everything else has branched off and evolved from it..."

Historically wrong. The Mongols didn't ride or train in dressage, and neither did the American Indians. Neither did the cowboys or cavalry. Neither did the ancient Greeks.

Dressage is a variation that evolved at the same time other variations evolved. It isn't the way the Chinese rode, or the Romans, etc. Dressage is not the Mother of Horsemanship. Other styles didn't branch off of dressage.

If you actually look thru history, and look at saddles and equipment and riding manuals of armies, you don't find dressage. You find something much closer to this:



Look at this image from the 1300s:



That isn't dressage. It has more in common with the cowboy than with Anky.

Athens, 440 BC:



I believe this postage stamp was derived from a painting done around 600 AD:



This picture is from a tomb carved in the 600s - notice the stirrup placement:



Roughly 900 AD:



From École de Cavalerie in 1729:



Dressage evolved in Europe around 1600-1900, but the main change is a move away from what cowboys used was in the mid-1800s. While both dressage and western riding use a traditional seat, what we see in dressage now reflects an evolution made to adapt to the use of collected gaits in the 1800s. Since cowboys didn't use the collected gaits developed in dressage, they retained the older, traditional seat and leg position.
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    11-25-2012, 01:16 PM
  #115
Banned
And if I could figure out how to post a pic from my iphone, I'd post pics of my perfect sliding tracks I made with my boy yesterday....made through softness, impulsion, collection and mostly DRIVE from that back end and LIFT in the front end.....without all those Id be eating dirt or my saddle horn and my horse would probably sustain a nasty injury....
     
    11-25-2012, 01:18 PM
  #116
Banned
BSMS....you can ride collected one handed....
     
    11-25-2012, 01:19 PM
  #117
Trained
MG, there is a very noticeable difference between the gait of reiners and trained dressage horses. The organization that provides rules for international competition calls what dressage uses a 'collected gait'. If you want to argue they are wrong, then take it up with the FEI - which I believe also now sanctions reining...
     
    11-25-2012, 01:47 PM
  #118
Trained
Bsms......nice examples of what I stated. I didn't use the Chinese, but part of what I said counts for those too, small, compact horses
And you're posting pictures of exactly that, small, compact, more upright, and cow horses. Horses who EASILY collect.
And, you definitely can ride collected with one hand, the bridle horse, the Spanish vaquero horse, the modern reiner, the classical dressage horse on the "shanked bit"alone, in German called "blanke Kandarre". Kandarre being the shanked part of the double bridle.

I get the feeling we are just about talking about the same thing here, anyway. Dressage, as a discipline of showing, is not new or unique. Or elite. It is basic requirement for a well ridden horse, has to be worked at, sometimes hard, sometimes less hard, in its higher levels can be a form of art (note: CAN, but not always is), rules and standards had to be written, as with any competitive sport, and had to be adjusted for the now used type of horse.
Maybe the latter makes it so hard to understand that the principle is the same.
     
    11-25-2012, 01:52 PM
  #119
Banned
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsms    
MG, there is a very noticeable difference between the gait of reiners and trained dressage horses. The organization that provides rules for international competition calls what dressage uses a 'collected gait'. If you want to argue they are wrong, then take it up with the FEI - which I believe also now sanctions reining...
Im not arguing with the FEI standard....I'm stating that what they dictate is directed towards judging and competition....its not the 'sandard' that is the be all and end all for every discipline....
     
    11-25-2012, 02:12 PM
  #120
Trained
"Dressage, as a discipline of showing, is not new or unique. Or elite. It is basic requirement for a well ridden horse..."

No. It is not. The examples I gave are closer to the riding of a western cowboy from 1900 than they are to a dressage rider in 2012. Dressage is NOT a basic requirement for a good horse. Dressage is an off-shoot of good riding. It is a subsection. It is a branch, not the tree trunk. The tree trunk, as I tried to show, uses a style very much in common with a 1900s cowboy.

The cowboys of the 1800s and early 1900s developed a lot of great horses without ever reading or hearing or seeing dressage. The word dressage is not French for "horse using its butt'. All well trained horses use their butts, but very few well trained horses are dressage horses.

And yes, you can ride a reasonably collected horse one handed. It is done a few million times a day. But you don't ride dressage one handed in competition. Because that isn't part of the history and specialty of dressage. And that doesn't make dressage wrong. It just means it is not all-encompassing.

There is nothing wrong with a western rider saying they ride a collected horse. But if they claim to ride collected gaits, then it will cause confusion because there is a different meaning, internationally accepted from long before I was born, about what a collected gait is. There needs to be a way to describe what makes the movement of a dressage horse different from the movement seen in reining. And the FEI - which sanctions both, I believe - uses the term 'collected gait'. And MG, you do not make a sliding track using a collected gait, although collection is needed to create a sliding track.

If someone has a better term, have at it.

To the subject of this thread: This misunderstanding is at the root of WD. WD wants to use the principles of dressage to "improve" western horses and riders, without understanding that western horses and riders already know what they are doing. I find it offensive that someone wants to say western riders don't know how to ride a horse with lightness, or with balance, or with impulsion. All good western riding already does that.

Dressage can be celebrated and respected as a branch, just as reining, cutting, and polo can. Don't mistake the branches for the tree.
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