Western Dressage - Thoughts ? - Page 13
   

       The Horse Forum > Riding Horses > Horse Riding

Western Dressage - Thoughts ?

This is a discussion on Western Dressage - Thoughts ? within the Horse Riding forums, part of the Riding Horses category

    Like Tree559Likes

     
    LinkBack Thread Tools
        11-25-2012, 02:30 PM
      #121
    Trained
    Western Dressage is never going to be Classical Dressage for the simple reason that a lot of us here in the US do ride Stock Type horses.

    I ride a very athletic Arab, with all the lightness and suspension in the world and he comes by it naturally, and he's a joy and very easy to ride. He'd make a really good Classical Dressage horse, if my interests lay there but they don't. So, he'll remain my go to fun horse to ride, Western Pleasure, Trail or trail riding or Parade riding.

    I also ride a QH who is the Yugo with busted springs to the Arabian's Maserati. He's Halter bred, not performance or cow horse bred, so he's downhill and built like a Sherman Tank and can barely get out of his own way. He's so heavy on the forehand that he causes muscle spasms in my neck and shoulders and my arms ache after I ride him. I ride him Western Pleasure and around the ranch and in the occasional parade. He will be trained in Western Dressage. Not because we want to blow anyone's mind with what a great dressage horse he is but because I will spend the rest of my life and all of his trying to get him a little more on his hind end. He goes real slow because that's his personality and physical ability but he's not collected. He's physically not really capable of collection or tracking up.

    I don't expect him to EVER be a great dressage mount, he's just not capable. He is capable of better though and through dressage training, we'll try to get him to his best.

    Even with WD defined tests, I doubt he'll make it TO first level, let alone past it. But we'll have fun getting there and doing it in a western pleasure saddle. WD is designed for those of us who have the desire to improve and learn but not necessarily the desire to go whole hog into the discipline. I have no intention of not showing WP and Western Riding, if he proves capable of doing several flying lead changes in a row and at this point it's highly questionable, or Trail or Parades, in favor of doing Dressage tests. I do wish to continue working to get him a little off his front end and that is something dressage is uniquely qualified to help me do.
    jaydee and Dustbunny like this.
         
    Sponsored Links
    Advertisement
     
        11-25-2012, 02:42 PM
      #122
    Green Broke
    Typical question of what was here first, the chicken or the egg.
    Classical dressage us the base if all currently known and accepted riding styles. So CLASSICAL DRESSAGE is the trunk, reining, jumping, dressage, competitive, are branches.
    Classical dressage is what you, bsms, posted as ecole de cavalerie.
    Any rider who is willing to improve his/her knowledge and horse, will, rather sooner than later, encounter principles of classical dressage.
    Competitive dressage, is just that, competitive(Note: not always, thankfully). To have a competition certain general rules are needed. And money and prestige is thrown in.
    Same with all other competitive equestrian sports.
    But still, without CLASSICAL DRESSAGE there would hardly be any equestrian sport apart from racing.
    Note: Classical dressage is not to be confused with modern competitive dressage.....

    And I have no clue where you got the "dressage is being used in parade" from........that's about as far from it as it gets.......
         
        11-25-2012, 03:21 PM
      #123
    Trained
    "Classical dressage us the base if all currently known and accepted riding styles. So CLASSICAL DRESSAGE is the trunk, reining, jumping, dressage, competitive, are branches."

    I'm sorry, but you are ignoring history and indulging in mythology.

    Look at the examples I showed. Ask yourself how many of those examples show the shoulder - hip - heel vertical line prized in classical dressage. Look at how closely the cowboy from 1900 Texas mimics the riding done for a thousand years before him, and how that style differs from classical dressage.

    Repeating an assertion doesn't make it true. Classical dressage branched off from mainstream riding in the 1800s. Mainstream riding lived on, and was used by cowboys (and still is).

    European or classical dressage promoters have passed off these myths for a long time, but there is no evidence to support their argument - or yours. Classical dressage is a branch of riding adapted for riding highly collected horses in the style suited for parade grounds. It isn't wrong. It is admirable for what it is. It is very difficult to do well. But it is NOT the base of all riding, nor the trunk of the tree. It is a specialty, as are cutting, barrel racing, polo, steeplechase and jumping. All of which should be admired and practiced for what they are, and not promoted as being what they are not.

    The folks riding dressage competitively are largely following "classical dressage". The classical dressage fallacy is just that. Dressage as practiced in the 1800s was every bit as ugly as competitive dressage can be. Or not. Depends on the trainer, as it does with cutting, WP, and polo. And I said parade, because it would cause greater offense if I said 'circus'...
         
        11-25-2012, 03:53 PM
      #124
    Super Moderator
    bsms you are totally ignoring the need for adaptation of riding style and tack to suit needs
    The romans far pre-dated the Renaissance period when the classical dressage style began to develop after a long period of what was regarded as brutality and primitive riding that cast aside all the efforts of people like Xenophon
    You can't possibly use the chinese as an example their early riding style evolved in isolation of Europe
    The American Indians had never seen a horse before the Spanish arrived though the Vaquero's were totally influenced by them. The american Indian saw how the Europeans rode and imitated them and then adapted that to suit their needs - mostly bareback riding
    Now - if you have done much bareback riding (as I have) you will know exactly how important collection is for comfort, control & safety. A jog or collected trot is far more comfortable than any faster and having a horse go into canter is far more desirable from collected trot than it is if you 'run' the horse into canter - by which time its going to be going so long and fast its not going to be very manouverable when hunting buffalo. Having a horse in control and with collection is more vital bareback for twisting and turning than it is with a saddle.
    The British Household cavalry do dressage exercises as part of their work routine and the remounts (new horses coming in) are schooled to dressage standards as per tradition
    The Spanish Riding School maintain that their movements were adapted from those used in battle where the horse itself was a 'weapon'. I don't see those movements being used in parades somehow and there is no history of that ever being the case
    Classical dressage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    deserthorsewoman likes this.
         
        11-25-2012, 04:22 PM
      #125
    Weanling
    Oh, so now Classical Dressage is a fallacy?
    Way to be incredibly rude...
         
        11-25-2012, 04:33 PM
      #126
    Green Broke
    Thanks jaydee........but I think we're arguing with a stop sign here.
    I think it's pretty safe to say that everybody agrees with history, well, except one.......
         
        11-25-2012, 04:35 PM
      #127
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by deserthorsewoman    
    Typical question of what was here first, the chicken or the egg.
    Classical dressage us the base if all currently known and accepted riding styles. So CLASSICAL DRESSAGE is the trunk, reining, jumping, dressage, competitive, are branches.
    Classical dressage is what you, bsms, posted as ecole de cavalerie.
    Any rider who is willing to improve his/her knowledge and horse, will, rather sooner than later, encounter principles of classical dressage.
    Competitive dressage, is just that, competitive(Note: not always, thankfully). To have a competition certain general rules are needed. And money and prestige is thrown in.
    Same with all other competitive equestrian sports.
    But still, without CLASSICAL DRESSAGE there would hardly be any equestrian sport apart from racing.
    Note: Classical dressage is not to be confused with modern competitive dressage.....

    And I have no clue where you got the "dressage is being used in parade" from........that's about as far from it as it gets.......

    Personally, I don't for a nanosecond believe that. That sounds to me like more inflated dressage egos. To say that ALL of anything comes from one thing-doubt it. But, since I am not a history expert, nor do I have the time or desire to search it all up like BSMS does. Again, as we went through in an earlier thread that went in a similar direction-good riding and training principles can be used without using dressage. One is not exclusive of the other. I find it difficult to believe that the riders of the "old west" gave a hoot about dressage, yet their horses were well trained. Trail riding is also a "discipline". Not sure if dressage is the "basis" of that. I think you get my drift. ALL is a lot. "Some" might be more appropriate. Just because my reiner sidepasses does not mean I do dressage, nor is a side pass (or any other maneuver for that matter) exclusive to dressage. Shoot-you need to sidepass to open a gate and traverse some trails. That is just one example.
         
        11-25-2012, 04:39 PM
      #128
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jaydee    
    bsms you are totally ignoring the need for adaptation of riding style and tack to suit needs
    The romans far pre-dated the Renaissance period when the classical dressage style began to develop after a long period of what was regarded as brutality and primitive riding that cast aside all the efforts of people like Xenophon

    Xenophon used bits that would curl your hair. The ancient greeks vaulted on their horses and their riding was adapted for using spears and no stirrups. He was no more the father of dressage than I am.

    You can't possibly use the chinese as an example their early riding style evolved in isolation of Europe

    If dressage is the basis of all good riding, then either the Chinese developed it independently or they sucked at riding. In reality, there are paintings of Chinese riders that look like the modern forward seat, and others that look like a cowboy. Not many, though, that look like someone riding 'classical dressage'.

    The American Indians had never seen a horse before the Spanish arrived though the Vaquero's were totally influenced by them. The american Indian saw how the Europeans rode and imitated them and then adapted that to suit their needs - mostly bareback riding

    And their riding was superb - although it was NOT founded on dressage.

    Now - if you have done much bareback riding (as I have) you will know exactly how important collection is for comfort, control & safety. A jog or collected trot is far more comfortable than any faster and having a horse go into canter is far more desirable from collected trot than it is if you 'run' the horse into canter - by which time its going to be going so long and fast its not going to be very manouverable when hunting buffalo. Having a horse in control and with collection is more vital bareback for twisting and turning than it is with a saddle.

    Who is arguing collection is bad, particularly if you define collection as "horse using its butt"? But that is NOT dressage collection, and it is NOT a collected gait, and most bareback riders don't desire the bouncy gaits of a well trained dressage horse. Again, that indicates dressage is NOT the trunk, but a branch.

    The British Household cavalry do dressage exercises as part of their work routine and the remounts (new horses coming in) are schooled to dressage standards as per tradition

    As a form of cross-training, it is fine. But the British cavalry did not ride into battle using collected gaits. No one did. And the US Cavalry investigated the ideas of the 'dressage masters', and found them unsuitable for military use. If dressage was the basis of all good riding, the Cavalry wouldn't have rejected it.

    This isn't to say that riding in the dressage style, or training a horse in classical dressage or modern dressage is bad. It is good, for the purpose it is done. But again, it is a branch of the tree. Not the trunk.


    The Spanish Riding School maintain that their movements were adapted from those used in battle where the horse itself was a 'weapon'. I don't see those movements being used in parades somehow and there is no history of that ever being the case

    No one ever used them in battle. A soldier with a pike would slaughter a dressage horse in battle. The SRS needs to sell a product, and they do. But they didn't train horses for combat. They trained them for the rich. And Xenophon understood the difference. The section he wrote that most closely resembles dressage is a passage bout how a king or ruler should ride, to impress and inspire the commoners.
    If, however, the wish is to secure a horse adapted to parade and state
    processions, a high stepper and a showy (1) animal, these are qualities
    not to be found combined in every horse, but to begin with, the animal
    must have high spirit and a stalwart body. Not that, as some think, a
    horse with flexible legs will necessarily be able to rear his body. What
    we want is a horse with supple loins, and not supple only but short and
    strong (I do not mean the loins towards the tail, but by the belly the
    region between the ribs and thighs). That is the horse who will be
    able to plant his hind-legs well under the forearm. If while he is so
    planting his hind-quarters, he is pulled up with the bit, he lowers his
    hind-legs on his hocks (2) and raises the forepart of his body, so that
    any one in front of him will see the whole length of his belly to the
    sheath. (3) At the moment the horse does this, the rider should give
    him the rein, so that he may display the noblest feats which a horse can
    perform of his own free will, to the satisfaction of the spectators.
         
        11-25-2012, 05:07 PM
      #129
    Green Broke
    A little bit of history.......
    French and Italian riding schools, Italians even with a now extinct breed, the neapolitano, neighboring countries, like Spain and Portugal adopted this way of riding. Yes, only the wealthy could afford it. So, now, looking at history, who again discovered America?....and who adopted the style of riding brought there with the discoverer? And who, really quick, used horses and the way of riding.....and whatvagain evolved out if that over time? And which style if riding, again, creates the bridle horse?... ...and how does the bridle horse function and work?

    And just to make it clear and not having the words turned around before I even say them.....modern dressage is not classical dressage as practised by for example, the Spanish riding school in Vienna. Modern dressage evolved, just as reining, barrel racing, jumping, cross country, as a competitive sport. Not one competitive sport is better or worse than another. All SHOULD have in common the well-being of the horse. And working a horse after the principles of classical dressage will achieve that. Regardless of what the rider wears or what kind of tack he uses.
    Reno Bay likes this.
         
        11-25-2012, 05:18 PM
      #130
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Muppetgirl    
    Yes, reiners do perform collected gaits. Whatever the FEI standards are, they are for judging purposes for Dressage classes, and many a reining horse would meet or exceed those standards....

    Since reining horses have mastered collection (at a far younger age than a dressage horse), why would dressage be the basis of all training then? Apparently you've surpassed all people/horses that have specialized in dressage. We have nothing for you that you haven't surpassed us in.

    Never mind. The irony is too much for me...
    Posted via Mobile Device
         

    Thread Tools

    Similar Threads
    Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
    Your thoughts on just a saddle blanket? (western) Clair Horse Tack and Equipment 14 03-31-2011 05:15 PM
    Two potential horses to lease: thoughts on which might be a better dressage partner? dutchess Dressage 13 02-28-2011 11:22 AM
    Gaited Dressage. Thoughts? southerncowgirl93 Dressage 11 02-23-2010 09:06 PM
    Wintec 2000 Pro Dressage Saddle - Thoughts? ChingazMyBoy Horse Tack and Equipment 3 02-20-2010 06:21 PM



    All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:35 PM.


    Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
    Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
    Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0