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Western Dressage - Thoughts ?

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        11-25-2012, 05:22 PM
      #131
    Trained
    "And working a horse after the principles of classical dressage will achieve that."

    So would training the horse at any competent, caring barrel horse trainer, or reining trainer, or jump trainer. No one sport has a lock on caring people who train an athletic horse.

    The lady who trained my horses comes from a barrel racing background. She has been to clinics in dressage, but if you asked her to train a horse in dressage, she would give you names of folks you might want to hire. But she loves horses, puts them ahead of money, and will gladly work with someone to get a happy, confident, willing and healthy horse. She has done wonders with my horses.

    And that is kind of my point about WD - lots of western riders train and ride good horses without needing to train them in dressage. Not because dressage is bad, but because the end goal in dressage is a horse that moves in a way many riders don't need.
    core likes this.
         
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        11-25-2012, 05:40 PM
      #132
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by core    
    Since reining horses have mastered collection (at a far younger age than a dressage horse), why would dressage be the basis of all training then? Apparently you've surpassed all people/horses that have specialized in dressage. We have nothing for you that you haven't surpassed us in.

    Never mind. The irony is too much for me...
    Posted via Mobile Device
    Not sure what you're getting at here....but you may have noticed I am sitting on the fence....I also never said dressage is the basis for ALL trainng, and I never said that I have surpassed all people/horses....jeez?.......irony is too much for you???? I'm not being judges in a dressage class.....so therefore the FEI standards for dressage don't apply to me.....every horse and rider is different....don't pigeon hole me....or anyone else who doesn't ride to 'your' code...
         
        11-25-2012, 05:51 PM
      #133
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Muppetgirl    
    Not sure what you're getting at here....but you may have noticed I am sitting on the fence....I also never said dressage is the basis for ALL trainng, and I never said that I have surpassed all people/horses....jeez
    You said:
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Muppetgirl:
    Whatever the FEI standards are, they are for judging purposes for Dressage classes, and many a reining horse ***would meet or exceed *** those standards....
    What were you saying then? Because that came off as one of the most arrogant statements I've read in a long time. Maybe it's not translating well through cyberspace...
    Posted via Mobile Device
         
        11-25-2012, 05:54 PM
      #134
    Super Moderator
    Novice test
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3t50l9VmJp8

    Freestyle Grand Prix
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tU9b...feature=relmfu

    Quite different
    Both Dressage

    & Core - I think you'll find that dressage pre-dates reining but I would say that a lot of the moves are influenced by dressage and ridden using the same aids/cues
    Most of the 'cowboys' who went out West to work on the big cattle ranches were of Irish & English origins. They were boys who'd learnt to ride before they came to the US and handed their knowledge down through the generations So their riding must have been influenced by the european style of riding that was in turn influenced by dressage (please stop confusing with the name given to the sport because even that has changed since its inception)
    This is worth reading
    USDF | About | About Dressage | History
    As is this
    USDF | About | About Dressage | Competition | Tests
    boots likes this.
         
        11-25-2012, 06:03 PM
      #135
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by core    
    You said:

    What were you saying then? Because that came off as one of the most arrogant statements I've read in a long time. Maybe it's not translating well through cyberspace...
    Posted via Mobile Device
    What I was saying is, and I was referring to high level reining riders/horses when I said a lot of them could/ can meet or exceed the FEI standards for collection is that you don't need to have been trained in dressage to perform these things correctly.....if I wanted to be a dressage rider I'd train in dressage....same goes with reinng.....Am I detecting a purist mentality??? How dare we western thugs redneck up your long boots and snow white breeches?

    BY THE WAY I love dressage......
         
        11-25-2012, 06:18 PM
      #136
    Trained
    "Most of the 'cowboys' who went out West to work on the big cattle ranches were of Irish & English origins. They were boys who'd learnt to ride before they came to the US and handed their knowledge down through the generations So their riding must have been influenced by the european style of riding that was in turn influenced by dressage..."

    False. Most of them were self-taught, or taught by the military. Their style of riding reflects the style used in the US Cavalry, which rejected dressage as unsuitable for military needs - needs that include fast training for horse and rider, and covering a lot of ground with the least effort. And no, they were not mostly immigrants.

    From the link you provided:

    "The United States Cavalry at Ft. Riley exchanged ideas and instructors with the schools in Europe and started the trend that brought dressage training not only to the military but to civilians in the United States."

    Not true. The US Cavalry rejected dressage, and the manual written in the 40s - the last one written - finally mentioned collection, but was far more heavily influenced by Caprilli than by dressage. I've got a copy, and read it closely. It is a good discussion of how to jump, but it is significant that it was approved about the same time horses disappeared from normal war use.

    Here is a picture of cavalry from the first World War:



    Compare to a cowboy of that era (1907 Texas):



    That is an awful lot like how folks were riding in 900 AD:



    The style of dressage adapted that for the demands of riding a very collected horse, which is part of why the heel moved under the hip. People were not stupid about riding horses for 2000 years. They rode they way most people have used:



    That is just the easiest way to ride and control a horse. It isn't dressage, and dressage doesn't mean 'horse using butt'. And it was also used by the Chinese, and by the Indians in the west. That is the trunk, not the branch.

    The idea that dressage is the mother of all riding is simply not backed by any evidence. It is a myth.
         
        11-25-2012, 06:29 PM
      #137
    Banned
    Ok I'm just going to keep subbing to this, but I find it very 'belittling' to hear or read people saying things like 'it took yeeeaaarrrs to train my horse to do this or that'.......
    Whether it takes, one day, one week, or a whole year or even three to teach a horse one maneuver or another highly depends on the horses capability and willingness to learn and perform it properly and the riders skill level and aptitude for riding......it's not the discipline that makes the horse or the rider....and a good judge will know that.....and where or how the history of one discipline comes from is of non-importance because when you roll through a square halt or scotch a slide the judge isn't going to give a rats behind, he's going to deduct points!

    Be the best at what you can with what you've got!
         
        11-25-2012, 06:54 PM
      #138
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Muppetgirl    
    What I was saying is, and I was referring to high level reining riders/horses when I said a lot of them could/ can meet or exceed the FEI standards for collection is that you don't need to have been trained in dressage to perform these things correctly.....if I wanted to be a dressage rider I'd train in dressage....same goes with reinng.....Am I detecting a purist mentality??? How dare we western thugs redneck up your long boots and snow white breeches?

    BY THE WAY I love dressage......
    I don't agree. If a good reining horse can meet/exceed the degree of collection required for a dressage horse then theoretically the dressage horse would have all the collection it needs to be a good reining horse. I seriously doubt a horse trained through GP dressage (the highest degree of collection that we test) could be competitive as a reiner. It's just not the same.

    I have an idea.. prove me wrong. Take your reiner to a dressage show and ride a Grand Prix test. And don't use the "my horse isn't a warmblood" excuse with me. My old half Arab used to beat the snot out of the fancy warmbloods. My paint mutt beats the warmbloods. If my off breed horses can out score the warmbloods, then your reining horse should be able to at least hold it's own against a warmblood.

    And I'm not taking my dressage horse to a reining competition. I already know we'd get our a$$ess handed to us.

    Love the pot calling the kettle black thing you've got going on.
         
        11-25-2012, 06:58 PM
      #139
    Green Broke
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bsms    
    "Most of the 'cowboys' who went out West to work on the big cattle ranches were of Irish & English origins. They were boys who'd learnt to ride before they came to the US and handed their knowledge down through the generations So their riding must have been influenced by the european style of riding that was in turn influenced by dressage..."

    False. Most of them were self-taught, or taught by the military. Their style of riding reflects the style used in the US Cavalry, which rejected dressage as unsuitable for military needs - needs that include fast training for horse and rider, and covering a lot of ground with the least effort. And no, they were not mostly immigrants.

    From the link you provided:

    "The United States Cavalry at Ft. Riley exchanged ideas and instructors with the schools in Europe and started the trend that brought dressage training not only to the military but to civilians in the United States."

    Not true. The US Cavalry rejected dressage, and the manual written in the 40s - the last one written - finally mentioned collection, but was far more heavily influenced by Caprilli than by dressage. I've got a copy, and read it closely. It is a good discussion of how to jump, but it is significant that it was approved about the same time horses disappeared from normal war use.

    Here is a picture of cavalry from the first World War:



    Compare to a cowboy of that era (1907 Texas):



    That is an awful lot like how folks were riding in 900 AD:



    The style of dressage adapted that for the demands of riding a very collected horse, which is part of why the heel moved under the hip. People were not stupid about riding horses for 2000 years. They rode they way most people have used:



    That is just the easiest way to ride and control a horse. It isn't dressage, and dressage doesn't mean 'horse using butt'. And it was also used by the Chinese, and by the Indians in the west. That is the trunk, not the branch.

    The idea that dressage is the mother of all riding is simply not backed by any evidence. It is a myth.
    I see a tendency to twist history around just as you need it and to see only what you want to see.
    To me stating that several different things don't mean "horse using butt" tells me that im wasting my energy.
    You need to learn what Classical Dressage is, then watch modern dressage competition, then go to a Buck Brannaman clinic to see how the same principles are being used there too. Then you might even learn to have more control over and less problems on the trail with your own horse.
    boots likes this.
         
        11-25-2012, 07:05 PM
      #140
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by core    
    I don't agree. If a good reining horse can meet/exceed the degree of collection required for a dressage horse then theoretically the dressage horse would have all the collection it needs to be a good reining horse. I seriously doubt a horse trained through GP dressage (the highest degree of collection that we test) could be competitive as a reiner. It's just not the same.

    I have an idea.. prove me wrong. Take your reiner to a dressage show and ride a Grand Prix test. And don't use the "my horse isn't a warmblood" excuse with me. My old half Arab used to beat the snot out of the fancy warmbloods. My paint mutt beats the warmbloods. If my off breed horses can out score the warmbloods, then your reining horse should be able to at least hold it's own against a warmblood.

    And I'm not taking my dressage horse to a reining competition. I already know we'd get our a$$ess handed to us.

    Love the pot calling the kettle black thing you've got going on.
    Um....I'm talking about collection alone.....no breed bashing....I am saying that just because a horse has not been trained through the 'dressage' pyramid does not mean it is incapable of performing the same or better than what the FEI judges are looking for.....jeez, you are touchy......

    I never said anything about warmbloods, they are certainly suited to dressage and I never said they weren't....

    Read my posts a bit better and quit adding in things.....
    deserthorsewoman likes this.
         

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