Western Dressage - Thoughts ? - Page 20 - The Horse Forum
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post #191 of 502 Old 11-26-2012, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by franknbeans View Post
Again-there are other disciplines that require an immense amount of knowledge, skill, training, whatever-dressage does not have a corner on that market...
Correct. Which is why core said, "...the immense amount of knowledge and skill required to be a knowledgable and good rider in dressage, is absent from all other disciplines."

Dressage specific skill sets are absent in other disciplines because they are dressage-specific, and not general riding skill. That is because, at the risk of putting words into her mouth, core agrees that there is basic riding common to all disciplines, and then there are additional, specific skills for each individual discipline. And if I am putting words into her mouth, I apologize in advance and will be interested in correction.

Training for some degree of collection is common to all riding. Collected gaits, as defined by the FEI, is pretty much a dressage-only skill set - because no one else worries about doing it.

If the WD folks would claim they are giving an additional venue for western riders to enjoy and train their horses and have fun with some fun-loving people, I'd be all for them. After all, WP doesn't do much for me, but if it makes other folks happy and gets them riding and training their horses, it is fine with me. My beef with the WD folks is they claim they are going to teach western riders how to ride with lightness and balance, and I find that insulting - even as a very *******ized semi-western rider in a fake Australian saddle using a forward seat, I find it insulting.

We aren't your normal western rider & horse, and in truth we are way BELOW the average western rider & horse, but I don't need to study dressage to get us better. They lady who gave us the most help, over a 6 month period, was an ex-barrel-racer (turned public school teacher turned full-time horse trainer)...

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post #192 of 502 Old 11-26-2012, 04:29 PM
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I think I liked it better when we drifted off for a bit and briefly commented about being older.

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post #193 of 502 Old 11-26-2012, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Dustbunny View Post
I think I liked it better when we drifted off for a bit and briefly commented about being older.
Good - So do you remember the Beatles before they were mega famous as well?
We took our youngest son to see Crosby Stills and Nash this year - not a walking frame in sight - and he was amazed by them
Leave the WD haters and negatives to unravel their knots for a while and regroup
You know - as has been said - if you dont want to do it you dont have to. Just pretend it doesnt exist and all will be happy again in your world!!!
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post #194 of 502 Old 11-26-2012, 04:48 PM
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Brilliant jaydee
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post #195 of 502 Old 11-26-2012, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by franknbeans View Post
Again-there are other disciplines that require an immense amount of knowledge, skill, training, whatever-dressage does not have a corner on that market. I hate to break it to you. There are knowledgeable, skilled riders in MANY other disciplines, so it is not "absent from ALL other disciplines" as you state. Geez.
Having to have an immense knowledge of DRESSAGE is absent from all other disciplines is what she meant. Might want to re-read some stuff.

I don't have to know about cows to ride dressage, same with people who work cattle don't need to know diddly about dressage to be good at working cows.

Also about the Clydy "winning dressage". Considering the bit in it's mouth is illegal at all levels of dressage, I'm highly skeptical. It looks like the rider is turned out for showing, not dressage, as well. Apparently our definitions of "doing exceptionally well" are different as well. Anything less than high 60% to low 70% at FEI PSG/I1/I2/GP I would consider to be marginal or average. A truly talented dressage horse in today's world is capable of an 80% at Grand Prix.

I will say this again. Good riding is the basis for all riding. Dressage is a sport. To all the dressage people whining about the sport being the end all be all of riding and how no one else can ride - you are the ones that make us all sound so snooty. A leg yield, a shoulder in, etc.. are not movements exclusive to dressage and should be included in any rider's repertoire as a basis to being a good rider. Being able to half halt a horse in such a way that they shift weight to their haunches while remaining in a connection, on the contact and swinging through the back in collection in order to increase suspension, impulsion and self carriage, however, is something exclusive to the sport of dressage. Dressage is not comfortable, it is not easy and it is certainly not the basis of all riding. Name to me another horse sport which wants the horse to be up in the contact having about 10lbs of weight in each rein, having the horse being so reactive that a flinch sends their hind legs flying and a shift in weight sends them almost completely sideways and wanting the horse to be on the absolute edge between control and freedom and expression of movement. Most pleasure riders want their horses to be easy to ride and that is the absolute antichrist of riding a good dressage test. One does not get 8s 9s and 10s for riding a subservient horse that is moving in a way which is easy to sit. I let a pleasure rider hop on my PSG horse and he was immediately flying sideways because the rider was not balanced in the saddle, that is dressage and it is the opposite of what a pleasure rider wants. A good upper level dressage horse is so sensitive that he dislikes being brushed, cannot be in certain blankets or handled by certain people and under saddle feels like a ticking bomb. Dressage is maintaining the sensitivity of the horse and increasing it to a point where they are balanced on the head of a pin. Pleasure riding is desensitizing the horse to the rider until it is "well behaved". The two are opposites and one is not the basis of the other.
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post #196 of 502 Old 11-26-2012, 05:15 PM
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Anebel - maybe you need to read correctly too - that Clyde wasnt the posters horse but a relative of it and the pic was taken after a showing class nothing to do with dressage
I've worked with eventers, hunters (UK Fox), point to pointers & showjumpers over the years and spent a lot of time around racehorses on my grt uncles yard - all as fit and often more fit than a dressage horse - yes some of them can be ticklish about being groomed but certainly not all of them. You are generalising far too much
My retired mare who does hardly anything is terribly ticklish, does her best to tread on you and would nip when groomed - it has nothing to do with being fit. I've had hunters who were like it when super fit and still like it when let down in the summer
We get it - you think WD is beneath you, like something nasty you trod on - well maybe you should just wipe it off your feet and move on to where you feel you best belong because I think it will grow and develop very nicely without your support.
Go and trot out your FEI dressage knowledge to all those that give a **** because I for one am totally fed up of all the negativity here
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post #197 of 502 Old 11-26-2012, 06:08 PM
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I just thought about something.
In Germany, where lots of good dressage riders and even more good dressage horses come from, we have, by FN definition, shows with dressage, jumping, driving, vaulting. From beginner to highest levels. So, beginner level tests, no more than w/t/c, maybe a leg yield, or a simple leadchange, are DRESSAGE tests.
Having said that, I don't understand, really, why people get so defensive. Maybe if you all tell me what you call the lower level tests, I understand.
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post #198 of 502 Old 11-26-2012, 06:09 PM
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Guess the OP needs to write more clearly, as it still does not seem clear to me at all, and it seems that we are all reading it slightly differently. Anebel-of course one doesn't need an immense amount of knowledge about DRESSAGE to ride other disciplines. BUT, that does not mean that other disciplines do not require their OWN knowledge. Again-I think the post is ambiguous-but then, not beg a dressage person, perhaps it is on another level.....where my head is not. (you can read that however you like.)

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post #199 of 502 Old 11-26-2012, 06:10 PM
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Jaydee and others - I think you have entirely misread Anebel's post.
She wasn't giving a hint of 'holier than thou', but was in fact talking about exactly what myself and many others in this thread have referred to - that Dressage is NOT the 'basis' of all discplines and everyone should have to do it.
I suspect people just see Dressage rider, and automatically put on their 'You're a snotty so-and-so glasses' when that is an absolutely unfair judgement to make.

Maybe I just 'get it' because I'm a snobby Dressage queen with perfectly white breeches and shiney boots on 24/7, and I ride my horse that is of the value of a horse around my perfectly manacured arena, bouncing around with my nose in the air....

*snort.... like hell, I struggle to keep my whites clean for 5 minutes at a comp! You'll generally spot me feeding up after work, in a dress tucked into my underwear, covered in dirt, flies and sweat.
Quit with the assumptions that we're prancing around like the Royal Family ;)
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Last edited by Kayty; 11-26-2012 at 06:15 PM.
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post #200 of 502 Old 11-26-2012, 06:21 PM
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I will admit that I just "glanced" through a lot of the posts on here and it seems that Western Dressage is very controversial in many areas of the world. A Lot of the things written here (example, horses with huge shanks having full contract with two hands) made me cringe and make me think that there is a LOT of confusion by the WD and the Non WD world.

In Nebraska, I know it's very different as Nebraska Dressage Association is a stickler for the rules. Since it is so new, the rules for Western Dressage weren't really in play but they are getting there including how many hands to use with which bit. Western Dressage Rules & Guidelines | Western Dressage Association® of America

I do see it as very different from reining but similar to working cow horse except that the horse is encouraged to use his body more like the dressage horse. We have had many clinics etc here in Lincoln Nebraska with both traditional dressage riders and western who have themselves done a lot of schooling. Basically what I have learned from them is that Western Dressage is very much like traditional dressage but geared towards a non-warmblood horse. Yes they must carry themselves with the same balance, impulsion, etc however they are not expected to have the big powerful strides of an Oldenburg but more the stride of a Quarter Horse or traditional Paint.

I have considered trying Western Dressage at a few upcoming Schooling shows to see how differently my horse is scored in each. Because Cinny's strides will never compare to the Warmbloods, TBs and irish sport horses, it may be a better fit for him. He will still be required to use himself the same way, but the apple will be compared with other apples instead of comparing him with Mangos.

It's all just a big experiment that is yet to be properly regulated with rules adapted for the western horse and rider. But I think it will get there.
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