Western Dressage - Thoughts ? - Page 25 - The Horse Forum

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post #241 of 502 Old 11-27-2012, 12:28 PM
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Well the FEI definition works for me, and it does NOT require 10 lbs of pressure the reins or hypersensitivity, which are not in the best interests of the horse.

Max Gahwyler was known for his deep understanding of dressage and its history. Here's a quote from The Competitive Edge.
" Where is the common denominator between the past [ la Gueriniere and dressage as practiced at the Spanish Riding School] and present? It lies in the basic training of the horse, up to about our Third or Fourth Level, where the horse learns to move forward, to be straight, supple, balanced, light in front, and on the bit. The methods we use to achieve this - shoulder-in, travers, renvers, simple changes, half passes, smaller and smaller circles, circles on two tracks, rein backs, and so on - are nothing more than schooling exercises and were called the Campaign School [ cavalry term ]. "

BTW, the true Haute Ecole movements were left out of the modern dressage tests because they weren't suitable for the military horse of the day. "The emphasis [of Haute Ecole] was always on collection and execution of the individual movements [ a long list only 3 of which are included in the modern Grand Prix test ] done to perfection, rather than a sequence of movements done in the modern dressage test. "

The modern dressage test emphasizes the ability of the horse to always go forward without interruption or loss of balance, which is why the transitions become so important. Not a requirement of Classical = Baroque dressage which is totally about riding in collection.

The goal of Western Dressage is that expressed by every writer on dressage I can find - to create harmony and relaxation between horse and rider using a system of exercises (see above) that lead to a horse that is straight, forward, and calm. It's that system of exercises that distinguishes dressage training from anything else.
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post #242 of 502 Old 11-27-2012, 12:36 PM
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How many USA western riders grew up in Germany. Probably not a lot.
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Do you think that all western riders in the US suddenly appeared or evolved from some other species of animal? Where did all you people come from (excluding Native Americans and Black Americans) you came from Europe - of and guess what? Germany is a part of Europe!!!
Eitan Beth-Halachmy (Cowboy Dressage) grew up in Israel and studied classical dressage under Adam George who was not only a classical dressage expert but learnt his foundation in riding as a former Hungarian Cavalrey Officer
When Eitan moved to the US his main equestrian sport was reining/freestyle reining and he was able to use his dressage knowledge to excel in it. He sees WD as a branch of reining - using the same techniques and taking them into a new sport where they can be showcased and people can compete against each other
bsms Again - dressage is not an english word, it was already in use in France and adopted for the competitive sport. The English did not invent dressage, they were some way behind the rest of Europe in even adopting it - and the US were behind the English
If the English don't translate 'dressage' to mean training then explain dressage as competed in by driving people - not seeing anyone on horse back in this advanced pony pairs dressage but you have to train to do this and these competitions are about testing to see who has done the best job of training
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8lrWuN4dxk
You are constantly seeing dressage as something done at advanced level in a competition ring - did no one here start at the bottom?
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post #243 of 502 Old 11-27-2012, 12:44 PM
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Of course the guy that trained for cutting would say that. Now find a dressage trainer who agree's. Or better yet, put the cutting horse in a third level test and show us the score sheet. It wouldn't be pretty.
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There are plenty of REAL dressage trainers who actually would say that and as someone who did mounted games as a child/teenager and used the same pony for pony club dressage then I can assure you they do very well in both if you take the time to put in the basic groundwork (oh that's what we call dressage!!!)
And please tell me why should the cutting horse have to compete against a third level dressage horse?
Typical stupid badly thought out remark - would you ask a training level dressage horse that's just starting out to do that and have a pretty score sheet? You are totally illogical in your thinking
Did you fly straight out of the tree into Grand Prix or something?
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post #244 of 502 Old 11-27-2012, 12:48 PM
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There are plenty of REAL dressage trainers who actually would say that and as someone who did mounted games as a child/teenager and used the same pony for pony club dressage then I can assure you they do very well in both if you take the time to put in the basic groundwork (oh that's what we call dressage!!!)
And please tell me why should the cutting horse have to compete against a third level dressage horse?
Typical stupid badly thought out remark - would you ask a training level dressage horse that's just starting out to do that and have a pretty score sheet? You are totally illogical in your thinking
Did you fly straight out of the tree into Grand Prix or something?
If the cutting horse is claimed to be a third then he should be able to compete against a dressage horse trained through third. It the horse is not trained through third level dressage and instead is a cutting horse.
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post #245 of 502 Old 11-27-2012, 12:58 PM
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How many USA western riders grew up in Germany. Probably not a lot.
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How many American dressage riders won the Olympics? So, I find it safe to compare Reining with dressage, especially when that comparison comes from very experienced people.
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post #246 of 502 Old 11-27-2012, 12:58 PM
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I would call a cutter "poetry in motion", so does your "old mate" believe cutting horses and riders perform dressage? Because if he does, he is once again using a different definition of "dressage" than the WD people are using. They are NOT claiming they are going to use the principles of riding and training found in cutting horse...

Do you REALLY believe the WD folks are promising to teach this:



That is beautiful, but I don't think that is what the WD people meant when they stuck "dressage" into their name and into their advertisements!
methinks you need to get out a bit more! It seems that this is turning into something unhealthy...LOL
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post #247 of 502 Old 11-27-2012, 01:01 PM
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If the cutting horse is claimed to be a third then he should be able to compete against a dressage horse trained through third. It the horse is not trained through third level dressage and instead is a cutting horse.
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Who said that the cutting horse was third level trained? A horse that's not trained at third level is a cutting horse?
You are making no sense here at all
Do you even know what dressage is and that every horse starts out at the bottom with basic education or do yours go straight into half pass, flying changes & piaffe and passage. If that's what you think dressage is all about then I can understand why you're so confused
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post #248 of 502 Old 11-27-2012, 01:02 PM
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How many USA western riders grew up in Germany. Probably not a lot.
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I don't understand why this makes a difference? How many american "dressage" riders grew up in Germany? Probably about the same number. And I am guessing probably that might include you!
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post #249 of 502 Old 11-27-2012, 01:06 PM
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"Again - dressage is not an english word, it was already in use in France and adopted for the competitive sport..."

Again, it most certainly is now. I don't understand why it is so hard for you to realize a word might not have identical meanings in French and English. However, feel free to tell the moderators that the dressage subforum needs to include everything involving riding or training...

The Western Dressage Association says:

"The goals of Western Dressage and Dressage are similar. They both wish to create a better horse and rider with the use of structure and levels. The Western Dressage horse is encouraged to work and school on lighter contact than the typical dressage horses. While both want to see balance, cadence and carriage, the Western Dressage horse will be evaluated with the conformation and movement of today’s western horses in mind. The Western Dressage horse will have a shorter stride than a Dressage horse and the Western Dressage horse will be asked to walk, jog and lope as opposed to walk, trot and canter. In keeping with the tradition of the Western horse and rider they will be shown in Western tack and clothing. These are just a few examples of the differences.

It is not the goal of Western Dressage to create western horses that compete in open dressage but to create better western horses and riders through the use and principles of dressage."

FAQ

Now, are they referring to the SPORT of dressage, or are they saying ANY TRAINING?

Are they planning on using barrel racing training? Cutting training? Any training? Or training borrowed from the SPORT of dressage?

"There goes Earl!"
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post #250 of 502 Old 11-27-2012, 01:07 PM
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Just off to rewrite all the dressage manuals.. Obviously we are all wrong and should hang our heads in shame. Alternatively we could just punch each others lights out (that is an old northern english term for punching people in the face) as this seems to be what this thread is degenerating into. Does anyone actually give a hoot? I enjoy watching dressage and competing. I also enjoy watching Western riding. I don't enjoy having people go on and on and on and on and on about definitions, who is right, who is wrong, what level means what. I don't know what cutting is because you can't do it on a Clydesdale (LOL) and I basically couldn't care less. If we were really honest, neither could the horse who is taking part as long as they get fed and watered and loved! Can we get the forum back onto a nicer level? I really want to enjoy things. I have enough fighting at home.
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