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Western Dressage - Thoughts ?

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    11-28-2012, 12:24 PM
  #291
Trained
Anebel-again-an elitist attitude from a dressage person. Draft crosses do many things very well, and dressage is just one that some can. It is true that not all may be suited, but not all of any breed is suited to any one discipline, even the precious breeds that most top dressage folks use. WHy would I, or many others give a rats behind what "Europes' non-horsey people" think? Or anyone else, for that matter. Not all of us have any desire to look like we have poles in places they don't belong.
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    11-28-2012, 12:33 PM
  #292
Super Moderator
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluebird    
You are talking a whole load of rubbish
Yes she is. A UK friend of mine has lessons with these people and - WOW he has a Friesian that he uses that competed at Advanced/Medium Level in Holland
Oops
Dovecote Stables : Schoolmaster dressage and lunge lessons in Worcestershire
     
    11-28-2012, 12:44 PM
  #293
Foal
Anebel - I agree with what you're saying. It's about conformation of a breed. The breed characteristics that make the breed suited, or unsuited, for specific disciplines. I've ridden Friesians and getting them to use their hind ends is beyond frustrating, and even when they do, it's so much more difficult than for a horse that has the conformation to tuck its butt under.

I think the friesian breed has changed quite a bit the last decade or so. It used to be mainly leg action and horrible canters. With breeding programs focusing on the sport horse market for Friesians, they're starting to produce horses that have the conformation for collected work. It still depends what line of friesian you're looking at though.

Same idea with drafts. It's easier to find a Hanoverian that's built for dressage type collection, than it is a draft. Not that you can't find them out there, but they have a wider range of purpose than the Hanoverians are bred for.
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    11-28-2012, 01:08 PM
  #294
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by core    
Anebel - I agree with what you're saying. It's about conformation of a breed. The breed characteristics that make the breed suited, or unsuited, for specific disciplines. I've ridden Friesians and getting them to use their hind ends is beyond frustrating, and even when they do, it's so much more difficult than for a horse that has the conformation to tuck its butt under.

I think the friesian breed has changed quite a bit the last decade or so. It used to be mainly leg action and horrible canters. With breeding programs focusing on the sport horse market for Friesians, they're starting to produce horses that have the conformation for collected work. It still depends what line of friesian you're looking at though.

Same idea with drafts. It's easier to find a Hanoverian that's built for dressage type collection, than it is a draft. Not that you can't find them out there, but they have a wider range of purpose than the Hanoverians are bred for.
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I see it more as it is cruel to ask the horse to do something it's not built for and potentially lame the horse in the process. Two reasons that horses break down - bad confirmation and bad training. There is a reason why the only horses still seen competing at international competitions at the age of 18 are warmbloods, and are sound doing the work well into their 20s. Because they are built for it, and the training has been good.

Find me a draft horse that has performed GP dressage worthy of a 60% and maintained that for 8 years, in competition. It won't happen because the horses are lamed by the time they are 14. Which IMO is unfair and cruel and is done only to satisfy peoples need to "be different" and "stick it to those dressage bitches".

It's not an elitist attitude. It's common sense and good horsemanship. Every time I've had a horse maxed out by the work I've sold or retired them to a life more suited to the horse. Just got a phone call from a new owner of a mare I gave away 6 years ago because she was not built for dressage and was not standing up to the workload. She is doing awesome and the kid she was bought for wants to start competing at low levels. Could I have pushed her to the GP? The mare was capable of 2 tempis at 5 years old. Of course I could have pushed her to the GP! But why? For personal glory?? It would not have been fair to the horse.

Who out of everyone here would have liked their parents to have forbidden them from riding and pushed them to perform at the highest levels of track and field? Gymnastics? Football? That is essentially what is happening to these horses, and as a means to what end?? Personal glory, jealousy and wanting to prove that all those dressage bitches who eat KD and old bread to afford their horses and lessons are wrong. I'm sorry but I have not lived on shoestrings to have what I do to be called "elitist" and a bitch. Sorry for using a pitchfork to move straw and a hose and pump for water...
     
    11-28-2012, 01:18 PM
  #295
Super Moderator
Most of these people who are using different breeds are only competing at low levels - Prelim in the UK max. That's all they want to do/can afford to do and its their entry fees that are helping keep the sport alive
I'm sure if they had intentions of going higher they would buy a warmblood but mostly they don't.
Any breed is capable of competing at lower levels and giving their owners a lot of pleasure.
Dressage at that level is going to be no more of a strain than hunting and you get all breeds out doing that twice a week all season on hard roads and muddy ground and they are still going strong in their late teens
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    11-28-2012, 01:21 PM
  #296
Green Broke
Anabel, I think what you say makes sense, and it has triggered a bit of thought on my own horse, Cinny. He is a Paint, with a missing vertabrae, stiff sacroilliac and was born a tad over in the front knees. True he didn't start work until age 8, but am I pushing him too hard into something that is too hard for him? Maybe I am. Should I lower my expectations, maybe I should, or at least re-evaluate them and try different things.

Do I think another discipline would be better for him? Not really. Going over jumps would make his fore break down even faster and put more pressure on his sacroilliac and back. He's not suited for WP at all and would take a big effort on his part, even more than dressage. Barrels, reining...again, the front would break down too fast. He's probably best suited to be an every day trail horse. But, again lower level dressage would most likely strengthen the muscles where he has problems and at least build him up to help him use his body more effectively. Anything beyond training level is probably too much of a push...which I have already concluded a long time ago. Western Dressage where he doesn't have to stride and float AS MUCH, might be better for him.

Does this make sense to anybody out there? And thank you Anabel for promoting more thoughtful thinking where it comes to my horse's future. Sorry to temporarily steal the thread.
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    11-28-2012, 01:31 PM
  #297
Trained
Anebel, I don't know where else in Europe you have been besides the 5 days in Germany with a member of this forum who lives there, but I can assure you that Friesians are now more and more bred away from the impressive cart horse they originally were towards light riding horse with the gaits and conformation along with it.
Drafts, especially Clydesdale and Shires are more and more ridden, trained and exhibited in dressage. Go to any decent horse fair and you will see them, under saddle, in different disciplines, mainly dressage.
And not all warmbloods are built for dressage either. It all depends on the individual.
And even if they have the conformation, there is still no guarantee that they hold up. 10, 20 years ago it was normal seeing an 18 year old horse competing at highest levels and being, from what can be seen, sound. Today this is more and more the exception.
We noe have the throw away society, even for horses. I cringe when I see a 7 or 8 year old compete in grand prix.
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    11-28-2012, 01:40 PM
  #298
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaydee    
Most of these people who are using different breeds are only competing at low levels - Prelim in the UK max. That's all they want to do/can afford to do and its their entry fees that are helping keep the sport alive
I'm sure if they had intentions of going higher they would buy a warmblood but mostly they don't.
Any breed is capable of competing at lower levels and giving their owners a lot of pleasure.
Dressage at that level is going to be no more of a strain than hunting and you get all breeds out doing that twice a week all season on hard roads and muddy ground and they are still going strong in their late teens
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluebird    
Thought everyone may like to see an 'abomination' of a Clydesdale doing dressage! Does it really matter what horse is doing the dressage as long as it gives rider and hrose teh ability to 'show off' their best bits?
'Clydesdales do Dressage too' at Queensland Festival of Dressage 2009 - YouTube
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaydee    
Yes she is. A UK friend of mine has lessons with these people and - WOW he has a Friesian that he uses that competed at Advanced/Medium Level in Holland
Oops
Dovecote Stables : Schoolmaster dressage and lunge lessons in Worcestershire
Directly contradicting yourself in one page of the same thread??

I'm not talking about lower levels, yes at lower levels most horses can find their way through. I'm talking about actually doing dressage with a goal of high levels. Not debating if a horse can walk trot and canter.

IMO it is cruel to any horse to be asking them to do things outside of their abilities. A training level test is not outside of most horses abilities. Getting up to the collection and power required in the medium levels of the sport is a stretch for a good majority of most horses, including WBs. And doing FEI levels is not to be taken lightly. I don't dare claim that my horse could cut cattle on par with the world's best and that cutters are elitist for telling me I'm smoking something. I don't dare say that my horse could do an endurance ride and call endurance riders winning at FEI levels on their Arabians "bitches" for not letting me on my warmblood win. Or saying that they are all elitist, sitting up on their endurance bred arabians and winning all the time. Jerks.
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    11-28-2012, 01:46 PM
  #299
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by franknbeans    
Anebel-again-an elitist attitude from a dressage person. Draft crosses do many things very well, and dressage is just one that some can. It is true that not all may be suited, but not all of any breed is suited to any one discipline, even the precious breeds that most top dressage folks use. WHy would I, or many others give a rats behind what "Europes' non-horsey people" think? Or anyone else, for that matter. Not all of us have any desire to look like we have poles in places they don't belong.
Oh well said! I am British, not european. I am sure it was the British who invented the horse.....We have cave paintings and everything even ones with Clydesdales doing an ancient form of dressage and erm western riding which can still be seen today...ROFL
     
    11-28-2012, 01:47 PM
  #300
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by ~*~anebel~*~    
Directly contradicting yourself in one page of the same thread??

I'm not talking about lower levels, yes at lower levels most horses can find their way through. I'm talking about actually doing dressage with a goal of high levels. Not debating if a horse can walk trot and canter.

IMO it is cruel to any horse to be asking them to do things outside of their abilities. A training level test is not outside of most horses abilities. Getting up to the collection and power required in the medium levels of the sport is a stretch for a good majority of most horses, including WBs. And doing FEI levels is not to be taken lightly. I don't dare claim that my horse could cut cattle on par with the world's best and that cutters are elitist for telling me I'm smoking something. I don't dare say that my horse could do an endurance ride and call endurance riders winning at FEI levels on their Arabians "bitches" for not letting me on my warmblood win. Or saying that they are all elitist, sitting up on their endurance bred arabians and winning all the time. Jerks.
Really no need to be rude. I find certain words bordering on offensive. Don't use them in the forum.
     

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