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Western Dressage - Thoughts ?

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        11-28-2012, 12:54 PM
      #301
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by deserthorsewoman    
    Anebel, I don't know where else in Europe you have been besides the 5 days in Germany with a member of this forum who lives there, but I can assure you that Friesians are now more and more bred away from the impressive cart horse they originally were towards light riding horse with the gaits and conformation along with it.
    Drafts, especially Clydesdale and Shires are more and more ridden, trained and exhibited in dressage. Go to any decent horse fair and you will see them, under saddle, in different disciplines, mainly dressage.
    And not all warmbloods are built for dressage either. It all depends on the individual.
    And even if they have the conformation, there is still no guarantee that they hold up. 10, 20 years ago it was normal seeing an 18 year old horse competing at highest levels and being, from what can be seen, sound. Today this is more and more the exception.
    We noe have the throw away society, even for horses. I cringe when I see a 7 or 8 year old compete in grand prix.
    I have ridden with Sabine Schut-Kery, I am well aware of what Friesians are capable of.
    There is dressage, and there is dressage. Show me a draft horse capable of GP over 60% that has maintained it for 8 or more years.
    I never said all warmbloods were dressage machines either. The mare I gave away because she could not handle the work is a branded Hanoverian mare imported from Germany and in the main Hanoverian studbook.

    Horses are not allowed to compete in GP at 7 years old. It's written right on the top of the test. And while there are many horses competing at GP at 8 years old, it's shocking but they are usually still up there by 16, and older. Just not in the same classes with the same riders. Many are ridden in the U25 GP after a successful GP competition career, and eventually move up to the big tour again with the U25 riders. A friend of mine has a 16 year old doing the GP and he's been there for 6 years or so and showing no signs of slowing down, not all with her though, she is his second GP rider.
    It's not throw away... It's development. Many horses are talented and strong enough after 5-6 years under saddle to be doing a GP. Not their best GP, but a GP. I'm riding a particularly handy 5 year old who is already doing starting work for pirouettes, because it is easy for him and fun. He gets very bored riding around doing only things that 5 year olds should be doing. But his trot work lags at about first level, the horse does not develop as per the USEF tests dictate. I have no doubts that the horse will be doing a full pirouette before he learns an extended trot and is able to carry it. Might I also mention the horse was broken in only this summer. Horses learn far faster than most people give them credit for, what lags is the strength in the body.
    Kayty likes this.
         
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        11-28-2012, 01:00 PM
      #302
    Weanling
    Ok, my Clydesdale...what can he do within his abilities? He can pull. He can trot. He can walk. He can canter. He can bend with as much suppleness in the context of his size as any other horse. He can side step. He can pirouette. He can ride in ever decreasing circles and then increase again. He can canter, gallop(not in the dressage ring though, LOL). He can walk in straight lines, he can collect himself beautifully and as good as any 'highend' dressage horse. He can do dressage to music, he can do percision dressage (within context) With me riding him, he looks lumpy because I am too old and lumpy to become good and I am a novice. With one of the British Junior Dressage Team riding him, he looks absolutely amazing and Charlotte looks fabulous on him. When he was ridden by his previous owner in Scotland (Edinburgh Games) he won dressage when he competed against your sports horses, warmbloods and every other horse doing dressage. He is tremendously fit and very, very intelligent. The only thing I would NOT do with a Clydesdale is jump him because he is too big and heavy to go over jumps safely with someone on his back but he can jump if he needs to. He is more than capable of doing dressage at whatever level myself and his professional rider can get him to. He can also plough a field at 1 acre a day! Something a TB or sports horse would find difficult no matter how good they are at dressage. Don't be too quick to judge horses who don't fit the norm. Anyone who talks about conformation as if it was the only thing that matters is talking a whole load of horse muck!
    franknbeans, jaydee and Muppetgirl like this.
         
        11-28-2012, 01:08 PM
      #303
    Super Moderator
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ~*~anebel~*~    
    Directly contradicting yourself in one page of the same thread??

    I'm not talking about lower levels, yes at lower levels most horses can find their way through. I'm talking about actually doing dressage with a goal of high levels. Not debating if a horse can walk trot and canter.

    IMO it is cruel to any horse to be asking them to do things outside of their abilities. A training level test is not outside of most horses abilities. Getting up to the collection and power required in the medium levels of the sport is a stretch for a good majority of most horses, including WBs. And doing FEI levels is not to be taken lightly. I don't dare claim that my horse could cut cattle on par with the world's best and that cutters are elitist for telling me I'm smoking something. I don't dare say that my horse could do an endurance ride and call endurance riders winning at FEI levels on their Arabians "bitches" for not letting me on my warmblood win. Or saying that they are all elitist, sitting up on their endurance bred arabians and winning all the time. Jerks.
    Sorry - where was I contradicting myself.
    1. I said that any breed should be capable of doing low level dressage - which is what the majority of riders are happy to do - they use these same horses to hunt, jump, show and the friend I mentioned uses her anglo arab for dressage and train riding and does well in both. I did NOT say that any of these non warmblood breeds were incapable of going higher
    2. I said (In opposition to your comment re. Friesians) that same friend has lessons on one that competed at Advanced Medium level.
    How can that be contradictory? I was pointing out a fact BTW not creating an argument
    Either read things properly or stop arguing for the sake of it and maybe you should do the same bsms before you jump in with both feet to agree
    The majority of people have no desire to compete at your levels so unlikely to be going up against warmbloods
    There are plenty of cheap warmbloods to be had now but I don't see any endurance riders rushing out to buy them - they tend to have a preference for arabs and arab crosses for a reason - they are much better at it
    This thread was never about warmbloods v every other breed or a war between western and english style riding it was about western riders having the right to enjoy doing something different with their horses
    Its a good job that when someone decided to use dressage as a competitive sport that all this attitude had no place or it wouldnt exist at all now.
         
        11-28-2012, 01:14 PM
      #304
    Trained
    Horses learn far faster.....that exactly is what leads to the throw-away mentality. The young horse offers a lot, and people tend to take advantage of this and ask too much too soon. NOT SAYING YOU DO, which the 5 year old you mention proves
    Prime example are elite auction horses, the 3 year olds. Work beautifully. Buyer takes them home and has to give him a year in pasture because he is completely out of his mind. I know several breeders who would not give a horse to the pre auction inspectors for exactly that reason.
    franknbeans and LisaG like this.
         
        11-28-2012, 01:17 PM
      #305
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jaydee    
    Sorry - where was I contradicting myself.
    1. I said that any breed should be capable of doing low level dressage - which is what the majority of riders are happy to do - they use these same horses to hunt, jump, show and the friend I mentioned uses her anglo arab for dressage and train riding and does well in both. I did NOT say that any of these non warmblood breeds were incapable of going higher
    2. I said (In opposition to your comment re. Friesians) that same friend has lessons on one that competed at Advanced Medium level.
    How can that be contradictory? I was pointing out a fact BTW not creating an argument
    Either read things properly or stop arguing for the sake of it and maybe you should do the same bsms before you jump in with both feet to agree
    The majority of people have no desire to compete at your levels so unlikely to be going up against warmbloods
    There are plenty of cheap warmbloods to be had now but I don't see any endurance riders rushing out to buy them - they tend to have a preference for arabs and arab crosses for a reason - they are much better at it
    This thread was never about warmbloods v every other breed or a war between western and english style riding it was about western riders having the right to enjoy doing something different with their horses
    Its a good job that when someone decided to use dressage as a competitive sport that all this attitude had no place or it wouldnt exist at all now.
    You said something to the effect of most people on drafts do lower levels, and posted a link to a draft horse doing higher level dressage.

    Dressage is, in the essence of the sport, the desire to compete at high levels. Those without the desire to compete at higher levels are pleasure riders. And I don't say that to be rude. My mother competes at low levels of dressage and calls herself a pleasure rider. She has no desire to learn a flying change, or a piaffe and does not claim to be a dressage rider.

    The bit I underlined is entirely my point!!! There are many cheap horses of lots of breeds and the reason they are not snatched up is because every horse sport has it's preference for breed types because that is what each breed type is bred for. My point EXACTLY is that it is ludicrous to claim that a WB could do endurance!! The same reason why I am arguing and have been for the whole thread that WD is simply another way for people on WBs to get ribbons. The judging is not different from regular dressage, and a WB will place over a QH if they put in the same test. Same as in regular dressage. Somewhere this got into some twisted thing about me being an elitist bitch and oh look here's a Clydey that did a dressage test once.
    There is a reason why WBs are preferred for dressage. They are bred for it. WD is just dressage in different tack. And you can use a curb with two hands.

    Of course everyone can do whatever they want with their horses. But WBs will dominate the sport they are bred for, be that dressage or jumping. Same with QHs will be the best at working cattle, Arabs will make the best endurance horses. To argue any differently is not "open minded", it's ignorance. I don't use a toothbrush to hammer a nail into a board because I do eventually want to get the nail into the board.
    Kayty likes this.
         
        11-28-2012, 01:20 PM
      #306
    Super Moderator
    And warmbloods tend to be more prone to OCD than other breeds
    http://www.ker.com/library/EquineRev...rition/N17.pdf
         
        11-28-2012, 01:25 PM
      #307
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by deserthorsewoman    
    Horses learn far faster.....that exactly is what leads to the throw-away mentality. The young horse offers a lot, and people tend to take advantage of this and ask too much too soon. NOT SAYING YOU DO, which the 5 year old you mention proves
    Prime example are elite auction horses, the 3 year olds. Work beautifully. Buyer takes them home and has to give him a year in pasture because he is completely out of his mind. I know several breeders who would not give a horse to the pre auction inspectors for exactly that reason.
    So the fact that the horse is likely on track to be doing the GP by 8 is??? You contradict yourself. In a regular progression of dressage training where the horse is prepped for flying changes by the end of their 5th year, due to start competing 3rd/4th by 6 and in the PSG by 7, for a talented horse the GP at 8 is not a stretch. For me, that is not pushing too fast on the right horse, this horse is one of those. The horse already offers half steps and changes.

    The 3 year olds in auctions I will not say anything about as I feel it's not going to add anything to the conversation. However, I will say that any horse broken in at 3 years old deserves some months off to grow before being put into regular work by mid 4, some of it is not the fault of the auction as well.
         
        11-28-2012, 01:27 PM
      #308
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jaydee    
    And warmbloods tend to be more prone to OCD than other breeds
    http://www.ker.com/library/EquineRev...rition/N17.pdf
    QHs of certain lines are prone to far more deadly diseases, Drafts to EPSM, grey horses to cancer, etc...

    Your point?
    Kayty likes this.
         
        11-28-2012, 01:30 PM
      #309
    Trained
    All the arguments here started when some people said it can't be called dressage , can't be judged like dressage by dressage judges and can't be done in their dressage arena.
    We now, hopefully, agree that lower level dressage IS dressage, that nobody wants to take anything away from upper level dressage riders.
    And a warmblood has a chance in WD as long as it can perform the western working gaits jog and lope, not only trot and canter. I wouldn't go as far as saying it would win automatically.
         
        11-28-2012, 01:35 PM
      #310
    Super Moderator
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ~*~anebel~*~    
    You said something to the effect of most people on drafts do lower levels, and posted a link to a draft horse doing higher level dressage.
    No
    I said that any breed is capable of competing at lower levels
    and
    In response to your point that Friesians as draft horses are no good for anything above lower levels I posted the other link
    Again - take the trouble to read things properly
    Dressage is, in the essence of the sport, the desire to compete at high levels. Those without the desire to compete at higher levels are pleasure riders. And I don't say that to be rude. My mother competes at low levels of dressage and calls herself a pleasure rider. She has no desire to learn a flying change, or a piaffe and does not claim to be a dressage rider.
    In the UK if you compete in dressage at any level you are a dressage rider.
    The bit I underlined is entirely my point!!! There are many cheap horses of lots of breeds and the reason they are not snatched up is because every horse sport has it's preference for breed types because that is what each breed type is bred for. My point EXACTLY is that it is ludicrous to claim that a WB could do endurance!!
    I thought you said your warmblood could give an endurance horse a run for its money?
    The same reason why I am arguing and have been for the whole thread that WD is simply another way for people on WBs to get ribbons. The judging is not different from regular dressage, and a WB will place over a QH if they put in the same test.
    Isnt the whole point of western dressage that it is for people on mostly western type breeds and not warmbloods? I somehow can't see why a bunch of warmblood riding conv dressage riders would want to rush out and do WD instead just as I don't see the sort of people who want to do WD giving up their beloved QH or Morgans to get a warmblood. These people have a passion for these horses
    Same as in regular dressage. Somewhere this got into some twisted thing about me being an elitist bitch and oh look here's a Clydey that did a dressage test once.
    There is a reason why WBs are preferred for dressage. They are bred for it.
    Actually they were bred for the military
    WD is just dressage in different tack. And you can use a curb with two hands.
    I have always ridden in a double bridle with two hands - there was a curb involved in that - in fact two bits, they get used in showring classes too - is that wrong (I would agree in some hands but the same applies with any bit)
    Of course everyone can do whatever they want with their horses. But WBs will dominate the sport they are bred for, be that dressage or jumping. Same with QHs will be the best at working cattle, Arabs will make the best endurance horses. To argue any differently is not "open minded", it's ignorance. I don't use a toothbrush to hammer a nail into a board because I do eventually want to get the nail into the board.
    No one has ever argued that WB's don't dominate the conv dressage sport
         

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