Western Dressage - Thoughts ? - Page 39 - The Horse Forum
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post #381 of 502 Old 02-18-2013, 11:32 AM
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deserthorsewoman touched on what I was going to ask...

Photos

I am curious as to what dressage people see when they see photos like the ones in the link above.
These are not WD photos but like DHW said, bridle horses.
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post #382 of 502 Old 02-18-2013, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by longride View Post
For those who have access to California Bridle horse trainers that's wonderful. But I know of only one bridle horse trainer in my state and he's no expert, though dedicated and well intentioned.
Seems to be a good guy. None of the greats call themselves experts and know that they'll never stop learning.....
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post #383 of 502 Old 02-18-2013, 12:18 PM
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Ahh. And here we have it. Dressage language vs the rest of the world. Opal, if WD never planned on going beyond 1st level, your definition would hold. But we already have tests for 2nd level and are writing tests for even higher levels. There are degrees of collection, and you're talking about the lowest degree while Core is talking about the highest. Neither of you is wrong. It's a language problem. While books on dressage training have no problem recognizing that there is a scale of collection, the RULES only use the term for full collection. It isn't different things - it's the same thing only more,.
Thank you, Longride. Good interpretation. :)
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post #384 of 502 Old 02-18-2013, 12:36 PM
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Well I will give you my thoughts in June, our riding club is doing a western dressage show then. The organizer of the event came to my work to specifically ask if I would compete and to remind to send in my membership, lol. I talked to my coach, she is looking into it, I already told her I would neck rein only and maybe just frame the horse up at bit. I am not impressed by any of the vids I have seen two handed and full contact with a curb. Oh, good thing I came across this thread, I need to get my club membership & insurance app in, Forgetful Jones.
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post #385 of 502 Old 02-18-2013, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by COWCHICK77 View Post
deserthorsewoman touched on what I was going to ask...

Photos

I am curious as to what dressage people see when they see photos like the ones in the link above.
These are not WD photos but like DHW said, bridle horses.
I see overbitted horses, broken at the third and trained not to touch their tie downs in fear of pain. Classic "framed" horses that are ridden front to back - ie bit first, seat later (or not at all).

A truly collected horse ridden back to front and there is no fear of the bit or fear of a rawhide tie down. The neck is never forced, there is suppling but never is the horse "broken at the poll" or "tied around" or "softened in the face". As soon as the horse drops behind the bit (ie breaks at the poll or "softens" the face) the horse can no longer be collected as he has been ridden front to back.
A great example of a truly collected horse ridden back to front is Uta Graf's Le Noir and their bitless riding. It is so evident that the rider does not rely on excessive tack to force the horse to submit and curl his neck, as is seen in the above link.


I fail to see how something that we ALL agree starts with the hindlegs, their increased activity and carrying power, can be thought to begin with a piece of metal 6' from the hindlegs. A bit will never, ever, ever collect a horse. It is physically impossible that something in the mouth will affect the hindlegs in a positive way that they will become more active and carry more, so I do not know where this belief comes from unless you've scared the horse off the bit so much that he behaves like a turtle, sucking his neck in to avoid the pressure and giving the rider the feeling of lightness. Which is not correct, or collection. A truly collected horse feels like riding a controlled explosion. There is so much energy and control that in any moment you can be in an extended canter or a halt without moving the hands, simply by giving a signal with the seat. It has nothing to do with lightness of the face, which is what IMO many people focus on and where the confusion comes from.
I would also agree that working cattle horses are far closer to collected in a true sense than anything else posted here.
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post #386 of 502 Old 02-18-2013, 01:15 PM
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Anebel....sorry, but you don't understand the principles of a true bridle horse at all. Let alone how it gets there......
I see way more pressed in a frame, unhappy and scared dressage horses than bridle horses.
Ride one, when you get a chance.......
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post #387 of 502 Old 02-18-2013, 01:25 PM
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Then what is the purpose of the severe curb and tie down?? My horse would not have two bad thoughts about jerking a rider with heavy hands off his back using his neck and mouth to pull the rider off, because he is not scared of the bit. Those horses do not even have the choice to resist. They are forced to obey through pain.

Comparing upper level dressage horses to a highly trained bridle horse (as I've posted Uta Graf and Cowchick posted pictures she likes) only one of those groups of horses are willingly accepting contact to their mouths (or heads in the bridleless video) and balancing on the haunches without necks curled in, under and down to avoid pressure. The difference is that dressage horses seek rein pressure in a connection and horses ridden in severe bits avoid pressure, avoid connection and therefore cannot in a classical sense be collected.


ETA - deserthorsewoman, you are one of the people who asked an opinion from a dressage rider. You got one. So be happy.
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Last edited by ~*~anebel~*~; 02-18-2013 at 01:27 PM.
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post #388 of 502 Old 02-18-2013, 01:27 PM
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Which shows your total ignorance of how a bridle horse is trained and works. Did you know that a top bridle horse will carry the bit with no headstall? No fear there. The bridle horse works off the same things a Grand Prix dressage horse does - the seat and legs of the rider. No one here has ever said collection BEGINS with the bit. But it is a circle, and the bit, whether it is a snaffle or a spade is included in the circle because of powerful and important muscles connected to the tongue that control and link the lower muscles sytems with the upper. All bits work first on the tongue, and that is where the horse first feels the aid. If it reacts from that by telescoping the neck out, without needing more, it doesn't matter whether the bit is a snaffle, curb or spade. While I see many pictures of horse broken at the third vertebrae, especially in the Morgans, not one of Jeff's is. The Sunday afternoon picture clearly shows the poll as the highest point with correct muscling of the neck and no "break."
From another dressage rider

Oh and someone explain to her what the bosal does and why there's a line that looks like a tie down. I don't have time.

Last edited by longride; 02-18-2013 at 01:33 PM.
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post #389 of 502 Old 02-18-2013, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by ~*~anebel~*~ View Post
I see overbitted horses, broken at the third and trained not to touch their tie downs in fear of pain. Classic "framed" horses that are ridden front to back - ie bit first, seat later (or not at all).

A truly collected horse ridden back to front and there is no fear of the bit or fear of a rawhide tie down. The neck is never forced, there is suppling but never is the horse "broken at the poll" or "tied around" or "softened in the face". As soon as the horse drops behind the bit (ie breaks at the poll or "softens" the face) the horse can no longer be collected as he has been ridden front to back.
A great example of a truly collected horse ridden back to front is Uta Graf's Le Noir and their bitless riding. It is so evident that the rider does not rely on excessive tack to force the horse to submit and curl his neck, as is seen in the above link.
Uta Gräf // Graf & Le Noir - bitless riding May 2011 - YouTube


I fail to see how something that we ALL agree starts with the hindlegs, their increased activity and carrying power, can be thought to begin with a piece of metal 6' from the hindlegs. A bit will never, ever, ever collect a horse. It is physically impossible that something in the mouth will affect the hindlegs in a positive way that they will become more active and carry more, so I do not know where this belief comes from unless you've scared the horse off the bit so much that he behaves like a turtle, sucking his neck in to avoid the pressure and giving the rider the feeling of lightness. Which is not correct, or collection. A truly collected horse feels like riding a controlled explosion. There is so much energy and control that in any moment you can be in an extended canter or a halt without moving the hands, simply by giving a signal with the seat. It has nothing to do with lightness of the face, which is what IMO many people focus on and where the confusion comes from.
I would also agree that working cattle horses are far closer to collected in a true sense than anything else posted here.
Anebel I appreciate your response, but what you are calling a tie down is nothing of the sorts.
I think what you are seeing is the get- down and the under bridle on the bridle horse and the bosalita on the two rein horses.
The head is not tied down in any way nor is it ever encouraged.
Also the bit is not used to scare the horse into position.

But I am not going to argue about how the equipment is used, I just wanted opinions on how the horses look from a dressage point of view on collection, regardless of the tack.

I DON'T LEAD 'EM AND FEED 'EM, I RIDE 'EM AND SLIDE 'EM.
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post #390 of 502 Old 02-18-2013, 02:00 PM
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I thought this thread died long ago......

I'm sitting on the fence here nodding in each direction.....as I can see everyone's point.....yet cannot refute as every discipline does things and defines things differently.........

All I can say is:

A horse is a horse, of course of course 😏
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