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Western Dressage - Thoughts ?

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        02-18-2013, 02:30 PM
      #391
    Green Broke
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ~*~anebel~*~    
    Then what is the purpose of the severe curb and tie down?? My horse would not have two bad thoughts about jerking a rider with heavy hands off his back using his neck and mouth to pull the rider off, because he is not scared of the bit. Those horses do not even have the choice to resist. They are forced to obey through pain.

    Comparing upper level dressage horses to a highly trained bridle horse (as I've posted Uta Graf and Cowchick posted pictures she likes) only one of those groups of horses are willingly accepting contact to their mouths (or heads in the bridleless video) and balancing on the haunches without necks curled in, under and down to avoid pressure. The difference is that dressage horses seek rein pressure in a connection and horses ridden in severe bits avoid pressure, avoid connection and therefore cannot in a classical sense be collected.


    ETA - deserthorsewoman, you are one of the people who asked an opinion from a dressage rider. You got one. So be happy.
    Don't you get snarky with me please. I stated that you don't know nothing about bridle horses, and your response tells me, and others, that I'm right. You did explain your point of view on collection of western horses and I gave you a "like".

    So, as I said before, educate yourself about bridle horse and their training, so you don't have to assume....ya know, assume makes an a....out of.........as somebody said.
    COWCHICK77 and GotaDunQH like this.
         
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        02-18-2013, 03:55 PM
      #392
    Trained
    I only know what I see, and from years of very critically seeing and watching and training and teaching and riding and judging I think my seeing is pretty good.

    When I see a bridle horse able to go bitless and do the same things, I will change my views on the subject. But until then I think the use of harsh tack is just that. Harsh and unnecessary. You don't think that it's excessive force because you are around it every day. Plain and simply. There is understanding and then there are conditioned responses. If you can't have an understanding of the biomechanics of collection and the fact that a bit cannot, physically collect a horse in the sense of the word that we have all accepted the definition of then you have drunk the Kool-Aid and become a proponent of conditioned response and blindly accept what is preached by those around you.

    And I think we all know that I am the last thing from a feathers and fairy dust horse person. But to NEED a harsh piece of equipment to achieve something that others are able to do in a bitless, or bareback in a halter (re Isabelle Werth) is not correct, and I don't care what discipline it's in. I refuse to blindly accept that this is "how we do it". As a community we have to be willing to accept critique and become critical of ourselves in order to improve welfare for the horse. Yes, I haven't trained bridle horses. But I've trained horses to do a lot of things that bridle horses do. In a correct, classical way based on fundamentals and hard work. Not a bit.
         
        02-18-2013, 04:11 PM
      #393
    Yearling
    Buck Brannaman looks lovely on his bridle horses.

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        02-18-2013, 05:12 PM
      #394
    Green Broke
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ~*~anebel~*~    
    I only know what I see, and from years of very critically seeing and watching and training and teaching and riding and judging I think my seeing is pretty good.

    When I see a bridle horse able to go bitless and do the same things, I will change my views on the subject. But until then I think the use of harsh tack is just that. Harsh and unnecessary. You don't think that it's excessive force because you are around it every day. Plain and simply. There is understanding and then there are conditioned responses. If you can't have an understanding of the biomechanics of collection and the fact that a bit cannot, physically collect a horse in the sense of the word that we have all accepted the definition of then you have drunk the Kool-Aid and become a proponent of conditioned response and blindly accept what is preached by those around you.

    And I think we all know that I am the last thing from a feathers and fairy dust horse person. But to NEED a harsh piece of equipment to achieve something that others are able to do in a bitless, or bareback in a halter (re Isabelle Werth) is not correct, and I don't care what discipline it's in. I refuse to blindly accept that this is "how we do it". As a community we have to be willing to accept critique and become critical of ourselves in order to improve welfare for the horse. Yes, I haven't trained bridle horses. But I've trained horses to do a lot of things that bridle horses do. In a correct, classical way based on fundamentals and hard work. Not a bit.
    Anebel, you missed the whole idea of why I posted the pics in the first place. I just wanted a dressage persons opinion of those pics to see if the dressage persons idea of collection is the same as a western persons. There are a couple of pics I liked and some I did not in that album. The tack used was NOT the point.

    But you keep getting hung up on the bit. Please don't. Your post clearly means that you do not understand the use. You are making assumptions like DHW said. That would be like me saying "dressage people don't know how to ride outside of an arena and they need contact on the bit to babysit their horses into position." Sounds pretty ignorant doesn't it?
    I feel like a broken record explaining to people that is not the bit that makes the bridle horse but the process. The whole idea is based off of the horse finding the balance from the body position of the rider along with the hackamore and/or bit. Not pulling the bridle to "beat" the horse into submission. The bit is not used as a leverage bit. If the reins need to be pulled then it is time to take a step back and fix the issue not yank the piss out of his mouth.
         
        02-18-2013, 05:20 PM
      #395
    Green Broke
    A dressage double bridle is harsh. And ridden with constant contact. A bridle horse is ridden with signals, not constant contact, and, during the years of training up to being in the bridle, learns very well to work off seat and leg cues. Isabell Werth had quite a bit in hand riding her horse with a halter. You won't see a vaquero having to use that much force.
    The bit, reins and rein chains of a bridle horse are carefully balanced to make a horse respond to barely a thought instead of as much as a tug. As has been said, they pack the bit, even without a headstall. A horse wouldn't do that trained with fear. Period.

    Again, I strongly suggest you educate yourself, before judging it, at the right places. And ride one, if you get a chance. You will appreciate it, just like I did, after growing up with dressage, then drifting into western, and a couple of sidesteps into Spanish/Portuguese style, and all that in a matter of 45 years, not days.
         
        02-18-2013, 11:31 PM
      #396
    Started
    WD still not my cup of tea.I love watching a well schooled english dressage horse but when it comes to watching western I prefer watching a well trained western horse,going relaxed with good even cadence,working off his rider subtle cues in a relaxed fashion on only light rein contact.Give me a good horsemanship,western riding or reiner they look more professional To me look more suited to their breed & riding stylethan "western Dressage"
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        02-18-2013, 11:39 PM
      #397
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by paintedpastures    
    I prefer watching a well trained western horse,going relaxed with good even cadence,working off his rider subtle cues in a relaxed fashion on only light rein contact.
    2011 AQHA World Show Senior Western Riding - YouTube
    Those are all things that are valued and looked for in Western Dressage, at least the way I practice it and have witnessed it within the Morgan breed.

    And see, I do not enjoy watching horses like in the video you linked. Watching someone ride like that is just not my cup of tea, even though I'm well aware that they are fantastic at what they do, I just have a lack of appreciation for the QH style of WP, how there's complete rein slack and the horse' neck is washboard straight, if not peanut pushing. He's still an excellent rider, that's undeniable, I just don't fancy watching that type of riding because there's nothing in it that I really value or aspire to, if that makes sense?

    To each their own, of course C:
    deserthorsewoman likes this.
         
        02-19-2013, 08:06 AM
      #398
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by COWCHICK77    
    deserthorsewoman touched on what I was going to ask...

    Photos

    I am curious as to what dressage people see when they see photos like the ones in the link above.
    These are not WD photos but like DHW said, bridle horses.
    In my opinion, most of the ridden pics show a horse that isn't correct (in terms of dressage). The poll isn't the highest point, the neck 'breaks' to far back which usually means the horse backed off from the bit instead up and out to the bit.

    The picture of the horse with the saddle on and no rider (Horse without Bruce - last one in series) doesn't show the muscling I'd expect to see over the top of the neck for a horse that is working correctly over its back. The majority of the mass is towards the bottom of the neck. It doesn't have that nice thick bread roll of muscling running along the top of the neck. Not like I'd expect from a horse that's been in training for any period of time.

    The one pic that I really like is the one called "collected". It's on the second row (on my phone) and second in from the left. That looks the most correct of all the pictures where the horse is actively working.

    I don't like the guy's riding style though. He's hunched over in the shoulders, and his lower leg swings quite far forward when riding. To me, that would add a lot of noise to the cues and prevent the subtlety of aids that a Bridled horse would require. Everything I've read about bridle horses suggests that 95-98% of aids are from seat/legs and not through the hand. If that's the case then a swinging lower leg with the hunched rider position would give a lot of conflicting messages to a horse. I'm sure the horse can tune out the swinging leg and bumpy seat, but that defeats the whole idea of what a Bridle horse is supposed to be, doesn't it?
    Posted via Mobile Device
    COWCHICK77 likes this.
         
        02-19-2013, 09:01 AM
      #399
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Opal    
    I think you missed this Core :)

    Also, I actually think that reining/cutting shows a lot less collection than a GOOD, (Morgan) WP rider. You use neck reining to control reiners/cutters, and so far with my experience, I've never heard a single reiner/cutter even mention/seem like they care about collection.

    Again, I think we have different opinions when it comes to collection. I believe that collection can vary based on the horse and the discipline, and the collection simply involves being on the bit and engaging a horse's haunches and that his hind legs should be reaching over the places where his front hooves last left the ground in a stride. You, from what I understand, believe that collection is simply as what is defined by the USDF and nothing more. It is true that balance is an important part of WP, but I have NEVER heard of anyone who does WP (Morgan) and does not plan on collecting there horse, at least in the way that WP defines collection. WP riders cannot show the level of extension and "floaty" gaits a dressage horse can-- that's not WP. Collection, in my opinion, it imparative to balance and I've ALWAYS been taught collection when I did WP. Trying to do WP without "collection" would just....uggg...I can't even fathom it.
    Just glancing through this thread, as I thought it ran its course long ago, but...I couldn't let this slide (no pun intended ) If you really believe this, you haven't been around many reiners.

    I will say that I find WP in Morgans (as with ANY of the "pleasure" classes with Morgans, honestly) to not look like anything I have ever seen of considered to be a "pleasure"! Tight reins, some in double bridle (one of the so called "pleasure" classes)......granted I don't know a ton about it, but have watched a few, since my niece shows at the world level in Morgan Pleasure.......

    I also would just ask, and this is an honest question-why all the discussion about "bridle horses"? It seems to be being used almost synonymously with WD?

    Anebel-honestly-get over the bit. It is only harsh if you actually use it, which most of us rarely do. I was petrified of a curb (**gasp**) when I first started riding reiners-but honestly-I never need to engage it. A slight change in the lift of the reins without any true contact as you know it is all that is needed. If it was that horrible my horse would not be practically diving into his headstall, would he?
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        02-19-2013, 09:31 AM
      #400
    Foal
    Core - I"ll give you that the picture of the horse 'As it should be" most definitely isn't as it should be. The horse is broken at the 3rd vertebrae in that one, but not all the horses are. Even that same horse is allowed to carry himself better in other shots.

    Frankenbeans, I think bridle horses come up so often in WD discussions because A. They are in the public eye now and B. The traditional training of the bridle horse closely follows the baroque dressage training methods that are the basis for modern dressage. When the Spanish sent horses to the Americas they were also exporting to the rest of Europe a style of training that began with a cavesson and only moved to a bit when the horse was fully balanced and ready to carry it. With modifications as the needs of the military changed, this became modern dressage. Bridle horses also have the carriage that people associate with dressage as opposed to the modern stock horse level top line.
         

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