What to do with unregistered stallion? - Page 2 - The Horse Forum
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post #11 of 43 Old 09-25-2009, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by mls View Post
You said you had no access to the dam.

National Museum of Racing - Hall of Fame

He's not an 'exceptional' stalllion.
What do you consider an "exceptional" stallion? He was the leading sire in 2003 and 2006. Stallion Register Online - A.P. Indy

His stud fee is $250,000 which is higher than what Secretariat's was. Lane's End Stallions: A.P. Indy Normally only the betterl stallions command that type of fee.

Anyway, I do agree with everyone who says geld the unregistered stallion.

"When you're young and you fall off a horse, you may break something. When you're my age, you splatter." -- Roy Rogers
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post #12 of 43 Old 09-25-2009, 04:52 PM
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I was curious about that as well - what deems a stallion "exceptional?" He appears to have an excellent record. I don't know much about racing though.

I still stand by statement to geld him.
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post #13 of 43 Old 09-25-2009, 04:59 PM
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I agree with everyone and Say GELD him. But if he a ex race horse you can use his lip tatoo to get his papers to have for your own personal use and resale value. But as everyone has said before we have enough unwanted foals in the world we do not need any more to try and find good homes for
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post #14 of 43 Old 09-25-2009, 05:42 PM
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Im thinking snip snip and now you have a great gelding, you also wont be making anymore unwanted horses. Not to say he wouldnt make babies that went to great homes and were great horses but we just have too many already and you cant guarantee that they wouldnt end up in a slaughter house.
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post #15 of 43 Old 09-25-2009, 05:42 PM Thread Starter
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I didn't want to get onto the topic of paper snobbery, but since the discussion is now open...I suppose you guys are right. I'm sure the piece of paper causes a horse to have better confirmation. I'm sure the piece of paper helps it become more athletic, makes it a more intelligent animal, and far superior to one without. What was I thinking?

Where would we be today if breeders many years ago decided to geld anything without papers? The quarter horse is a fine example of mix breed origins. The Quarter Horse was not recognized as an official breed in the U.S. until around 1940 when owners of these non-papered, heinz 57, farm and ranch stock horses got together to create a breed name for their horses that were unworthy of any other registration, thus "purifying" a breed of horses that had been anything but pure bred up to that point. They knew that their horses were worthy of breeding because they understood that the horse itself and not what papers came before it. It's certainly a good thing for all of the Quarter Horse show bunnies out there that someone didn't convince the original breeders of the Quarter Horse not to breed anything that wasn't papered. After all, that horse comes from so many different types of horses, that it is impossible to trace the exact origins. By what I've been told today on this site, those unregistered horses should have never bred, the original Quarter Horses would have never been acceptable. After all, there were far more unregistered horses running around back then. Those good stallions would have made even better geldings, don't you think?

The Thoroughbred also is originally a "mix breed", but was specifically bred to be a "Thoroughbred" from it's origination, unlike the Quarter Horse. Even the Thoroughbred didn't have a stud book from the start, however. It was traced back and created after the breed was established.

Now, in the case of my stallion. He has bloodlines that can be traced back to the Godolphin Arabian, one of the three founding sires in the 1700's. His bloodlines include many of the greatest race horses in history - and the fastest, as well as the only unbeaten triple crown winner in history. I suppose not having his papers due to a bad business deal by his original owners means he magically fell out of a tree and his breeding no longer exists.

I said I didn't have access to his dam. I never said I didn't know her breeding.
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post #16 of 43 Old 09-25-2009, 05:57 PM
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you asked for opinions. You got opinions. It is sad that your stallion got screwed in a bad deal, but unfortunately that is life. Its not his fault but its still the situation. He is a "grade" animal and any of his offspring would be considered "grade". Anything that can't be registered is grade. It doesn't make him of less quality. Enjoy him as a great gelding, that's my opinion.
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post #17 of 43 Old 09-25-2009, 05:58 PM
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I certainly wasn't trying to put your gelding down because it didn't have papers. I was simply stating that breeding a horse without papers raises the chance of creating a foal that will be difficult to place in a home, and a horse that his limited access to shows. There are enough foals like that.

While the papers don't change a horses athleticism, conformation, personalilty, or ability, they do ensure that a horse's history can be traced - making a horse more attractive to a buyer. How well did his parents do in shows? His half brothers? His grandsire? A buyer doesn't want a verbal confirmation of a horses breeding. They want paperwork. I can walk up to any AQHA show and tell them that my horse is a double Doc bred cow horse, but they don't care. They want papers.

We are simply saying this because no home is a guarenteed forever home. Things happen, and we can't always keep the animals we intend to keep forever. If you breed for a grade foal, and something happens where you can't keep it, that horse is put on the buyer's market, and buyer's don't put large sums of money into grade horses. This means that there's a chance that you have created a foal that simply has become one of many, many unwanted grade horses. It is a wiser decision to breed the papered stallion, and in case of emercency, you have a better chance of placing the horse in a good home.

My two cents.
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post #18 of 43 Old 09-25-2009, 05:59 PM
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I'm surprised that you've had a hard time finding information about unregistered horses.
Anywhere you go, the majority of answers you are going to find are the same ones you found here -- Geld him. No, papers do not make a horse. You can have an athletic, awesome grade horse. However if your horse is a racing bred stallion and it's offspring would probably be most marketable on the track, they're going to be at a disadvantage because they will not be able to be registered in the Jockey Club.

Search "breeding" or "Stallion" in most forums archives and you're going to find the same information there as you have gotten here.

As far as what you can do with him -- Plenty. Retrain him as a pleasure mount, jump him, whatever. Find something he enjoys doing and get him into it. However, I'm with everyone else when I say geld him.
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post #19 of 43 Old 09-25-2009, 06:04 PM
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I have to add this... you say that people understood "nice" horses before they came up with the registry, and that's true. But there also weren't as many horses as there are now. Do you know there are millions of quarter horses registered??? MILLIONS. I can't remember the number off my head and don't have time to look it up. If there are that many registered animals with points, producing offspring, and proven bloodlines/histories why would somebody want to breed to anything whose history could or could not be a made up fairy tale...

Now, before I sound really nasty, I'm not trying to say that what you are saying is a lie. BUT... it could be. With papers and the internet, I can find out every person who has ever owned my horse, just exactly what shows he's been to, how he placed, and the number of horses in his classes.

It doesn't mean he's a better horse... It just means that I know what I have.

Oh, and I'm a QH Show Bunnie and I love it :)
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post #20 of 43 Old 09-25-2009, 06:10 PM
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Does the horse have a tatoo? I mean, was he ever registered? Did the owner withhold the papers or refuse to have the horse registered? There may be a way to get them if the horse IS in fact registered.

Are you planning to breed for speed?

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Last edited by farmpony84; 09-25-2009 at 06:13 PM.
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