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What to do with unregistered stallion?

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  • Can a thoroughbred be papered with an unregistered TB

 
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    09-25-2009, 06:11 PM
  #21
Super Moderator
Non-papered, heinz 57, farm and ranch stock horses got together to create a breed name for their horses that were unworthy of any other registration, thus "purifying" a breed of horses that had been anything but pure bred up to that point.

Wow... my horses resemble that remark! Since they are, afterall... AQHA's!
     
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    09-25-2009, 06:57 PM
  #22
Showing
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shar    
I didn't want to get onto the topic of paper snobbery, but since the discussion is now open...I suppose you guys are right. I'm sure the piece of paper causes a horse to have better confirmation. I'm sure the piece of paper helps it become more athletic, makes it a more intelligent animal, and far superior to one without. What was I thinking?

Where would we be today if breeders many years ago decided to geld anything without papers? The quarter horse is a fine example of mix breed origins. The Quarter Horse was not recognized as an official breed in the U.S. Until around 1940 when owners of these non-papered, heinz 57, farm and ranch stock horses got together to create a breed name for their horses that were unworthy of any other registration, thus "purifying" a breed of horses that had been anything but pure bred up to that point. They knew that their horses were worthy of breeding because they understood that the horse itself and not what papers came before it. It's certainly a good thing for all of the Quarter Horse show bunnies out there that someone didn't convince the original breeders of the Quarter Horse not to breed anything that wasn't papered. After all, that horse comes from so many different types of horses, that it is impossible to trace the exact origins. By what I've been told today on this site, those unregistered horses should have never bred, the original Quarter Horses would have never been acceptable. After all, there were far more unregistered horses running around back then. Those good stallions would have made even better geldings, don't you think?

The Thoroughbred also is originally a "mix breed", but was specifically bred to be a "Thoroughbred" from it's origination, unlike the Quarter Horse. Even the Thoroughbred didn't have a stud book from the start, however. It was traced back and created after the breed was established.

Now, in the case of my stallion. He has bloodlines that can be traced back to the Godolphin Arabian, one of the three founding sires in the 1700's. His bloodlines include many of the greatest race horses in history - and the fastest, as well as the only unbeaten triple crown winner in history. I suppose not having his papers due to a bad business deal by his original owners means he magically fell out of a tree and his breeding no longer exists.

I said I didn't have access to his dam. I never said I didn't know her breeding.
1)
2) Hasn't been for thousands of years. Invalid point. Nowadays, people want papers, and grade horses (yes, unless have the papers, your horse is considered grade) are considered "lesser valued" - if you want to add to the growing pool of grade horses, keep your stud intact.
3) So do most horses, I'm not sure how this makes your horse special?My horse is "blue blooded;" he is bred up the ying-yang and has amazing bloodlines... but he's a gelding.
     
    09-25-2009, 07:38 PM
  #23
Yearling
I would have to agree with everyone here. I have paints. But Caddo my foal out of my registered stud is out of my qh mare that I can't get her papers because I do not know her parents. This is what I know about her she came from Texas she has a brand on her left hip. I called the Texas Cattlemens Association to see what I could do to get papers or to find out about them. This is what they told me. The I on her hip is the Stallion The L is the lot and W tells the mare band she was with. That is All I know about that. I have had several people wanting to breed to Caddo when he gets 2 years old but I am gelding him because without papers he will be considered a grade. Yes I can get pinto papers on him but you know when I inquired about getting papers on him when he was first born they will not register him with them until he is gelded because of the dam. I am upset because out of the foals born this year he is what a lot of people are looking for around here. 50% white to 50% color. Caddo will be shown. The other question that you have to look at is you might get some people to breed to him but more often than not they won't. This is not to discourage but it is reality. The dam of Caddo will never be bred again. The only reason I bred her to my stud was because I wanted another foal out of her to him. She gave me a great foal one that has the attitude of the sire wants to please even at his young age. I also liked her qualities. Do you know if he had been bred to mares before? Your horses can be trained to do anything that you would like to do. Also another aspect that you are not considering for him is a studs life is rather lonely. They are kept separate from the other horses. My stud has been by himself for 4 years now that is the other reason why I am gelding Caddo to give his dad a companion. I real not have to worry about him hurting his son because he will not compete for the ladies. We breed Sky either in hand or in the pasture. You will have to make your own decision. If you can get the papers from the JC then by all means keep him a stallion. Before you do anything get in touch with the JC they should be able to tell you anything from off of his tattoo.
     
    09-25-2009, 08:15 PM
  #24
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shar    
I didn't want to get onto the topic of paper snobbery, but since the discussion is now open...I suppose you guys are right. I'm sure the piece of paper causes a horse to have better confirmation.
If we're going to be accused of being snobs, then the proper term is conformation. Confirmation is to confirm something like a reservation.

Quote:
Now, in the case of my stallion. He has bloodlines that can be traced back to the Godolphin Arabian, one of the three founding sires in the 1700's. His bloodlines include many of the greatest race horses in history - and the fastest, as well as the only unbeaten triple crown winner in history. I suppose not having his papers due to a bad business deal by his original owners means he magically fell out of a tree and his breeding no longer exists.
So what? So does every TB born. Each and every Thoroughbred goes back to the three founding sires.

My Paint gelding goes back to Man O' War and all three founding sires. Again, so what?

I understand what the others are saying. Every magazine I read mentions the overpopulation of horses right now.

I breed dogs. My dogs all go back to super show dogs. All of my dogs, sans the 1 year old puppy are show champions. I don't breed them all. I only breed the ones who I feel will give something back to their breed. My puppies are sold on spay/neuter contracts because I don't want them bred just because they have spectacular bloodlines.

To me, horses are no different.

Registration doesn't always mean much. However, to me, breeding an unregistered animal just because the owner thinks he's wonderful isn't good enough in this time of horse overpopulation.

Of course, that's only my opinion.
     
    09-25-2009, 11:42 PM
  #25
Banned
Well I am going to go against the flow here. From what has been said the breeding on this stallion is very good. We do not have a picture of the horse so to say that it is not breeding worthy is also premature.

If I were the OP I would put the horse to an inspector and have a knowledgeable person judge whether the horse is breed worthy.

I did the same with my stallion. Yes he had paoers from his birth registry but he could never get approved there. He did not measure up as far as size in certain areas and would never be approved even though he is exceptionally well bred.

I took him to the AWS to have him put under the gun inspection wise and he passed with flying colors. A loss to his birth registry but approved according to a very knowledgable inspector. (proven by his show record also)

I would suggest the same to the OP.
     
    09-26-2009, 12:02 AM
  #26
Started
My question is this: Why do you want to breed this horse? What do you hope to accomplish by breeding him? I'm concerned that you didn't know the word conformation so wonder about your experience breeding.

While I agree that Spyder has good points, I'm of the opinion that, at this time, we don't need many new horses. Horses with wonderful breeding are a dime a dozen these days.

So...even if you could register this horse...what would you hope to accomplish by breeding him?
     
    09-27-2009, 01:25 AM
  #27
Banned
I say geld the crap out of that sucker, as does everyone else, obviously. I dunno, I'm not a fan of producing horses until they're for personal ownership/use or they're freaking one-of-a-kind. 'Cause you can find horses just as stunning as he is (which I'm sure he is) at auction, in kill pens, or at a Thoroughbred rescue facility.
     
    09-27-2009, 07:25 AM
  #28
Showing
I have to agree on gelding him. Even though he may be an "exceptional" stallion, the fact that he is not papered limits his opportunities to being a backyard horse, a working horse, or a competing in open shows. That in turn, would limit the opportunities to his foals because they could not be registered. And the whole reason behind papers is not to prove that a horse is better than any other, it is to prove who he is related to and what accomplishments they have made, which in turn shows what the horse might excell at. I am by no means a paper snob as of the 12 horses I currently have, only 3 have papers. And even though he may be beautiful and have really nice conformation, how can you be sure that you weren't lied to by the seller and he is nothing but another no-name foal out of no-name parents, or that the other horse is even related to him? If I were trying to sell my TB, I could claim that he is a great-grandson of horses like Secretariat and Northern Dancer but nobody could prove me either wrong or right because he has no tattoo and is not papered.

Papers do not make a better horse, they make a more desirable horse in today's market.
     
    09-27-2009, 08:08 AM
  #29
Showing
Quote:
Originally Posted by smrobs    
Papers do not make a better horse, they make a more desirable horse in today's market.
Well put, Jen.
     
    09-27-2009, 10:32 AM
  #30
Banned
Quote:
Originally Posted by smrobs    
Papers do not make a better horse, they make a more desirable horse in today's market.

I would agree in most cases EXCEPT any registered stallion that comes from a breed or registry that does NOT approve the stallions they have standing.

I will take an APPROVED stallion over the registered one anyday.

Just because it has papers does NOT in my book make it viable to be used for breeding. There are some pretty aweful TB registered stallions out there and I will take an unpapered TB stallion that proved his worth by submitting to another registry that was more dilligent in accepting stallions because they were put through an inspection or performance testing proceedure.
     

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