Where did all the honest people/horses go? - Page 2 - The Horse Forum
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post #11 of 70 Old 09-13-2011, 10:41 AM
Green Broke
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Surry, Va
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The trainer didnt seem dishonest, he told you the horse had broke ribs, maybe he didnt take propper care of the horses, and I would never board my horse in a group setting with other horses I dont own. You ever broke a rib ? it hurts for a long long time, and I didnt have anyone on my back.
I also would never buy a horse outright without doing a free lease at my house first. I am honest and not gonna sell a crazy horse. If I have to trust the seller isnt lying to me about the condition of the horse, then they can trust me to send them the money, bring back the horse, or tell em to come get it.
Also, no matter how great the horse is or was, never get on a new purchase without a few days of basic ground work. If nothing else that will give time for any drugs to wear off. Yep had it happen brought home a drugged horse, that was totally insane 2 days later. That was the one I told owner to come get, cause horse wouldnt load, he got snotty with me about gas and I bluffed told him I had a blood sample in the refridgerator I was gonna send to the lab and if It came back with drugs I was gonna take his house. He shut up real quick and left, led me to believe I had guessed right.
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post #12 of 70 Old 09-13-2011, 10:45 AM
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I would never "free lease" a horse I was selling. How can I be sure you know what you are doing with my horse? Way too many risks involved with that scenario. Nevermind the fact that many horses "disappear" that way. Come to my barn and ride the horse as much as you want, but it isn't leaving my property until paid in full.
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post #13 of 70 Old 09-13-2011, 11:19 AM
Green Broke
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Location: New South Wales, Australia
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I somewhat agree with Sahara - I am very, very reluctant to give a horse out on trial. I actually did do it with two seperate horses, and both were bought the horse after the trial. In this circumstance they'd come out a few times to ride and I (vaguely) knew them through people at agistment places, pony club etc, and I liked them a lot, knew where they were keeping the horse and could check up on it. Still, very risky, and I don't do it for all horses or people who come out looking. Buying a horse - I'd love the luxury of trialing every one but that would cut out 95% of the horses because the owners would never consent.

Bombproof is a very common term (in Australia at least) and is commonly used especially to describe children's horses, but also trail horses etc. No one is actually implying they are "bomb-proof" but everyone knows it means very quiet. It is by no means a dodgy term. I'd use it, riding schools use it, pony clubs use it. I wouldn't be remotely put off if someone used this term, in fact it may show that the owner is familiar with "horse lingo".

Bad luck about your horses. It can be very tricky because while there is a distinct possibility the previous owner lied, it also could just be the horse. Some horses don't cope with change well. I've seen a horse practically murderous with a rider when kept with a large herd, but sweet and calm when kept with a limited amount of horses. I've seen horses great in an arena and totally freak out in a new place. Just a few months ago I watched an owner ride and lunge his horse, I got on it and it took off bucking immediately and bolted.

My advice for future horses is go out multiple times to visit the horse. Ride in an arena and in a paddock and try and take them on a little trail. Ensure you are the one to catch and saddle them, get multiple people to ride them.
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post #14 of 70 Old 09-13-2011, 12:03 PM
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Location: Middle Tennessee
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My first Rule of Thumb:

If it has a heart and pumps blood?? It's unpredictable. There is NO SUCH THING as bombproof and people should not even be allowed to use that term.

I have been on a horse since I was two; started going to auctions with my grandpap and breaking them when I was 12.

I am so sorry this happened but it has been going on since the beginning of time. It is a sad testimony that the ethics and integrity of some people has only gotten worse over the years.

I saw this on Inside Edition a few weeks back, so Googled the original story. How disgusting is THIS

News - INSIDE EDITION Investigates Horse Selling Scam - InsideEdition.com

I thought I saved the actual FBI article on this but, as usual, I can't find anything when I want to

My four horses are broke to death - so broke and so gentle that folks have asked if either of the younger ones might be for sale. My kind reply is they are broke to death and bombproof (there's that word) because I keep them that way.

One has bad attitude and would run right over a new horse owner, the other one has big spook factors when he goes out by himself and likes to lip-nip for which he gets continually corrected. How far would these two broke-to-death safe horses last in an environment where nobody has any experience?

There are more problem horses in this world than there aren't. They got that way by being mis-handled either by a well-intending novice owner that has no one to guide them (and I mean physically touching the horse), or someone has either been rough with them or just flat-out abused them.

Then they get sold or given away, someone "re-schools" them for the sole purpose of making money and doesn't care who the horse goes to, so it ends up in the same situation it came from, only with different owners.

No wonder there are so many nut cases horses waiting to stomp the next person that looks at them.

Those horses that are truly truly safe for an inexperienced rider are few and far between and finding someone ethical to help that inexperienced rider can be even more rare.

Shame on the horse traders who prey on these folks. When I've gone to look at a horse the Traders I knew that were trying to sell as a family horse, they would say "oh you don't want that horse, it's got issues" hrmph - imagine that
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post #15 of 70 Old 09-13-2011, 12:20 PM
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: East Central Illinois
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Everybody here should be reading/responding to THIS THREAD! It took DH and me years to find replacements for my aging, then dying excellent bomb-proof--and they really were--equine members of our family, well into their 20's. We bought/sold at auction 4 horses and 1 mule that were highly UNDERtrained. I'm not looking to blame any trainers/sellers for these unfinished animals. 2 that I looked at tried to buck me off, 1 succeeded and I thank the Lord that I had the good sense to try him out without stirrups, or else I would have been dragged, and not riding today.
People new to horses TODAY do not understand the amount of hours it really takes to properly train a horse--We are talking about thousands of hours of training. Often really good trainers break in horses well because it is their labor of love for a breed, or other reasons. I don't think these people get back what they give.
They are, and always have been, hacks that don't know what they're doing, and there are re-trainers who can ride a scared horse because they bully him/her, but if you can't/won't/don't know how to bully same horse, the horse won't respect you and won't let you ride him/her.
Bleeding hearts discourage people from appropriately disciplining your horse quickly and correctly. If you do NOT discipline your horse, he/she WILL develop bad and dangerous habits, and even good horses left without training can develop bad and dangerous habits. Think about your assumably good dog who starts nosing at the dinner table, then steals your steak later on when you're not looking. Would you let this behavior continue? No. Would you beat the snot out of him? No, you probably would grab the steak, smack him on the rear with a "no, bad dog!", crate him during dinner for a good month, and use a sharp "no" whenever he comes near the table with food on it. It's the same thing with your horse. He/she is NOT your child, but he/she is the beta to your alpha and is comfortable when you provide leadership and expect good behavior ALL OF THE TIME.
The other aspect to our current "bad horse" dilemma is that the Internet (or computers) and gaming have replaced a lot of time that we all used to spend hanging around the barn and our horses.
It doesn't have to be this way. I have a friend who just sold a 3 yo filly (from a mare that she bought in foal but didn't know) with perfect manners. The whole family gentled her, and breaking her to saddle was a breeze because she had been handled SO MUCH. The fact that she is a Belgian is inconsequential, but it just shows that size is irrelevant to training. **TOTAL sigh**
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post #16 of 70 Old 09-13-2011, 12:48 PM
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Don't label all horse traders as bad news. We had one friend that was a dyed in the wool horse trader, and would make as much off of a horse as he could...BUT...he never lied about a horse. If he said a horse was good for a beginner, it was the truth - but he never claimed a horse was bomb-proof. Some horses he had were great for adult beginners, but some of those he wouldn't put a child on. A good kid's horse and a good beginner's horse may not be the same thing.

I'm not sure where you are located, but if you or your family are still in the market for a horse, you might want to develop some contacts in your local "horse world." Around here, that would be in the local riding or round up clubs. There are also some trail riding groups in our area. If I were in the market for a riding horse, that's where I would start. At least then you probably wouldn't be purchasing a horse from a total stranger. Even if you didn't know the seller, you would know someone who does, and that tends to keep people a little more honest.

Plain Old Dee, horses Dancer and Rain

I believe in dragons, unicorns, good men and other mythical creatures!
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post #17 of 70 Old 09-13-2011, 01:17 PM
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Location: East Central Illinois
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Thanks, Dee, I DO have a lot of contacts. You know how it is--NOBODY is gonna sell their really good horses. I probably looked at over 20 horses in the space of 3 years, and I thought I had screened them before going to look. I ended up buying one gelding from a reputable breeder and I got my 5 yo QH from a local rescue. I had a good chance to try him as a 4yo and had them test him before I went home to think about him for several days before I adopted him. I asked them to ride him, pick up his feet, lunge him, and load him in their trailer, in the dark. He showed their great training and his good personaility. He's a great horse and has settled into a very calm 5 yo.
I just think that any novice needs to be VERY CAREFUL. I also think, considering this Depression that we are in, it wouldn't hurt someone who is short on funds to lease out their horse to a riding academy. There is NOTHING like hours under saddle with multiple riders to really season a horse who needs more time under saddle. Bad hands and poor cues really don't hurt the horse. THIS used to be the precursor to "retraining." NOW, retraining is too often trying to make a horse rideable.
I ALWAYS had good rides on my lesson horses, and I owned all of them. DH and I took our horses on lots of riding vacations, and I felt safe letting my preadolescent daughters ride alone bc I KNEW my horses wouldn't rear, buck or run away with them. If I had one horse that MIGHT do such a thing, I rode him on these trips.
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post #18 of 70 Old 09-13-2011, 01:50 PM
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I don't know, Corporal. Around here, people are selling their really good horses, and only keeping the outstanding ones because they can't afford to feed the all. Sometimes you can get a really nice horse someone is selling just because they want to "upgrade" to a more challenging or exciting horse. People sell their kid's first horses because they are ready for one that is more highly trained or faster. Those horses would be great for a beginner.

Daughter bought a cute little mare a while back. She had ridden the mare several times and just loved her. I had some misgivings, but daughter is an adult and had made up her mind. Horse was great at first, but after a few weeks, she went nutso - absolutely crazy - and no one could do anything with her. Daughter thought it was becuase the mare had previously been in a very abusive situation (true story) but I'm of the opinion that it's just really bad attitude. Either way, she's too much for daughter to handle, and no one can ride her. I wouldn't sell that horse to my worst enemy.

Luckily, we have a neighbor who specializes in rehabbing "bad" horses. He agrees with me that it's bad attitude (vet has already given her a clean bill of health - it's not pain). I have a bet with my daughter that after three days with our neighbor, he'll be riding her around and she'll be just as calm as she can be. I can't wait until he has a spot open up for that little mare!

As for leasing horses out to a riding academy, there aren't many around here - and most of them are unloading horses as fast as they can. Our economy is so bad people can't afford lessons or boarding fees. Almost all of the horses that are run through our local auctions are going to kill buyers - even really good, well broke horses are going for slaughter.

Plain Old Dee, horses Dancer and Rain

I believe in dragons, unicorns, good men and other mythical creatures!
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post #19 of 70 Old 09-13-2011, 02:29 PM
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Ft. Worth, Texas
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I can tell you that the one big piece of advice I got when I bought my first horse over 10 years ago was, "Don't trust anyone in the horse business." If I had a nickle for everyone who told me that, I probably could have paid for my horse !!
Anyway, dishonest people are everywhere....always have been, but there are also honest people everywhere. Sometimes, it's just hard to sift through them. I am so sorry you had a couple of bad experiences with buying horses. I think the bad economy has pushed some of the borderline dishonest people completely to the dishonest side of the fence, but there are still some good people out there who are selling good horses. I also think that a lot of trainers aren't putting all the time into a horse right now because they know they can't get their money's worth back out of them, which puts more untrained horses on the market.
My best advice for buying a horse.....
1. Be patient. There are a lot of good horses out there.
2. Don't buy the first horse you see.
3. Never let emotion make your buying decision.
4. Always make the owner ride the horse first before you do. If the horse is semi-crazy, you will see the hesitation in their eyes.
5. See and ride the horse on multiple occasions - announced and un-announced.
6. Always, always have the horse vet checked before you purchase.
7. If the owner has sold horses in the past, ask for references and contact a previous buyer.

I have been extremely fortunate that both of my horses have turned out to be incredible animals, but I have always taken a lot of time before I buy to make sure what I buy is worth my time.
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post #20 of 70 Old 09-13-2011, 02:50 PM
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Location: Seminole, OK
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And remember - whatever you do - don't do what I did!

My two most recent acquisitions were purchased sight unseen. I knew absolutely nothing about the horses, other than their owner was moving out of state and couldn't take them with her. She was going to leave them with the property and HOPE someone would take care of them.

The first time I saw the horses was at the seller's property, and I had already paid for them. All I knew was that she claimed they were broke to ride. My daughte rode them both, and they did okay. The little paint (now deceased, but that's another story) didn't have any buck in him, but he also didn't know much. Not broke in my opinion, but he'd had a saddle on him a few times. I could live with that.

The mare (my avatar) was another story all together. She did fine for the daughter, but when the seller climbed aboard, the mare pitched a bucking fit I'd only seen previously in rodeos. Seller flew off of the mare head over hind side. Fortunately, there were no serious injuries, but I wondered what I'd gotten myself into. Seller claimed that "only a man could handle that mare."

Picked up the horses on July 11, 2009. Took us over four hours to load that crazy mare - seller was terrified of her, but wouldn't let us take over and get the mare in the trailer - she didn't want the mare "bullied." Huh. Fortunately, the little gelding loaded right up after we finally got the mare in the trailer.

After we got the horses home, the mare turned out to be a pushy, nasty tempered bit**. Took me a couple of months, but we came to an understanding. Now she's a really nice horse - not a kids horse, because she's a bit stubborn and pissy at times, but I don't have any qualms about riding her, and I'm not a very good rider at all. What I am, is a good herd leader, and my little herd does respect me...

Plain Old Dee, horses Dancer and Rain

I believe in dragons, unicorns, good men and other mythical creatures!
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