Showing a project horse + Insurance?

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Showing a project horse + Insurance?

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    02-12-2011, 07:22 PM
Showing a project horse + Insurance?

Hello as usual! I've been trying to figure some stuff out as I may start training horses in my free time to earn money from school and gain experience (I'm already pretty experienced though so it has nothing to do with that). Anyways, I wanted to know about USEF. I heard that in order to show at rate (I think it was rated and unrated show) you need to have insurance on the horse? I wouldnt be keeping the horses more than a year, and I might have them for even less than that. I would probably be showing mainly in hunter jumpers and showjumping depending on the horse. What exactly is the difference between the shows I can and can't enter? Do I HAVE to have insurance if its a project horse who is just earning potential show miles?
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    02-13-2011, 11:56 PM
Bump? :)
    02-14-2011, 12:12 AM
I've never heard that you have to have insurance to show a horse. I do know that if you are a "trainer", you can't enter the I believe amateur classes, though I could be wrong. I do know that I was told as a trainer I couldn't enter some of the jumping classes not because of lack of insurance, but because as a trainer, I was no longer considered an amateur, so I had to show in the higher classes. I'm also on the west coast, and I think that the show rules here are a little less strict than on the east coast.
    02-14-2011, 12:48 AM
Green Broke
There is absolutely no rule on insuring a horse to show at a USEF sanctioned show. I've shown several, and I never insure my project horses unless someone is decides to lease them. FYI, if this makes you nervous most companies will refund you a part of the insurance fees if you cut the year short. With Equisure I believe they prorate the major medical per month and give you back what you didn't use, but they do not refund mortality. Or is it the other way around....
Technically you can show any show, you just can't show in a class that is for amateurs. Or a class that your HORSE is inelligible for. Ie: in the Baby Greens a horse usually has to be in its 1st or 2nd year of showing, never having shown 3" or higher.
    02-14-2011, 05:55 PM
Ok because I was doing research and I read something that maybe you need insurance just in case something happens at the rated shows I think it was. I ask my mom, who trained horses in europe, but she said she never had insurance but wasnt sure since she's not native to america.

Technically I would be training the horses, and then my mom would be giving me additional training so I'm not sure if the whole training thing would be the same with me. I also grew up on the west coast so I know that showing there is pretty intense still :P But then again, there is a lot more of a major english influence on the east coast vs the west coast for sure!

Upnover - I don't think I would be leasing them out since I wouldnt financially have time to deal with all that but unless there was a certain horse, then maybe that would change. But I'm not really sure how leasing works anyways.. never done it. Also, how much is your insurance per horse? Is it per month/per year or how would that work? I know that any horse I would have would be with me for about 5 months or 6 months and then I would put it up for sale, unless there was some potential I would continue training on higher.

Also how exactly do shows work? You said something about the baby greens having to be the 1st or 2nd year of showing.. Is there some kind of order I have to follow in the shows? I never really understood them since I wasnt able to show a lot (I was younger when on the west coast with my trainer, didnt have a horse then either but she always made exceptions for me to ride a lot of her horses). Can I show a horse in baby greens and if they excell in that, I can enter higher shows within that few month period maybe?

Oh and does a horse have to be registered in order to show?..
    02-14-2011, 07:35 PM
Green Broke
Nope, insurance is definitely not needed! Insuring a horse will depend on how much coverage you want and how much the horse is worth. I used equisure with my last pony who was insured for $10,000. He had major medical up to $10,000 ($500 deductible) plus mortality and it was around $650 for the year. I sold him before the year was up so I got some of that $650 back. The project pony before that was never leased out so I never insured him. It's up to you, there are pros and cons to both sides.

Are you personally making money off of these horses (or anything related to horses) or is your mom? Because even if you're doing the training, if you're not personally making money you might be able to qualify as an amateur. It doesn't really matter, just allows you to enter in a wider range of classes. Although, there are plenty of classes for the pros!

What kind of shows will you be doing? You mentioned USEF, so are you talking hunters and/or jumpers? I can help you there, but prob not with anything else. ;) What you need to look at is a copy of a prizelist for a show you might go to. It'll have a list of all of the divisions offered and usually a description. Your plan will completely depend on where your horse is and what your goals are. I had a green horse I started showing last year in the Hunters. He was a bit of a nut so I just entered him in any open 2"3 division, usually called "schooling hunters" or "special hunters". He's doing much better now so his real show career started this past year in the Baby Greens, which is 2"6, for a horse in their first or second year of showing, and hasn't been shown over 3". I kept him in this division all year long bc we were accruing points for a year end award for our horse show assoc. Toward the end of the year he was schooling 3" very well but I still didn't show him at 3" because I didn't want to break his green status. That is not necessarily an important thing depending on what your goals are.

Now, I had a jumper I started off showing at 2"6 (he wasn't green, just had some issues). He really came along well and moving him up to 3" was no problem did a few classes at 3"3 at the end of the year with no prob. If I wanted to move him back down to 2"6 there weren't any green restrictions so I could have, but we didn't need to.

Horse registration will depend on what kind of show you want to do. For USEF you have to be a member of USEF/USHJA (otherwise you pay a hefty non member fee PER show) that you pay per year and your horse has to have a recording number (one time fee)

Sorry for the novel! Hope it clears things up a bit!
    02-14-2011, 07:59 PM
I read somewhere else that unless the horse is valued at $10,000+ then insurance is reccomended but below that, not really. And we would probably (if things work out!) be leasing a barn with all the anemities and I would bring in prospects and train them to the disciplines they are suited in, while my mom furthers my jumping training (with the appropriate horse) and teaches me dressage, which I will help teach the horse. Then I would sell them.. Basically, this will let me train horses while still in a way making money for school just in case!

Well FEI is international, so yes I would do USEF. Depending on the horse, I would do jumpers (what I honestly prefer) but if the horse is suited for it, then I would do hunters. If both, then both! Although I haven't had any SUPER formal lessons on equitation and hunters so I'd probably get a trainer for that if need be.. I'm not much of a western person, always did it for fun really. And as for goals - I would just want to get a nice simple starting show record on the horse to see how they do, how they place, and if its good, then I can sell them as a prospect, but there might be a chance I would show a little more.

The only thing I get confused about is all this "green" talk. I just don't understand when you know the horse is ready to move on?? Lets say the horse was schooling fine at 2'6 and showing well at 2'6 and I only had it for a short period of time.. should I try showing a bit higher like around 3 foot if they were ready for it? And as for points - do they stay permanently with you as well as the horse? I know there are lists that rank you depending on points.

What do you mean if you wanted to move him back down to 2'6 and there werent restrictions? How do you know if the horse is not elligable to move back down? I read about that, that the horse can't move down if its moved up.. how does that work?

Does the horse not have to be part of USEF/USHJA, only the rider? Or does it have to be part of it too? And how much does it cost to join?? I would probably do that, esp. If I might be showing multiple horses at a time!

And I like novels.. I don't really show so they are really helpful! :) Plus I have waaaay too many questions so I can learn as much as I can, plus you are super easy to understand :P
    02-15-2011, 09:54 PM
Green Broke
I'm glad you don't mind my novels! Sounds like a pretty fun set up you and your mom will have!

I personally don't insure my project horses because I need to make a profit off of them. The more you put into them, the less money you're going to make. If I lease them out I have the leaser pay for it, regardless of the cost of the horse, so it's still no money coming out of my own pocket but if anything should happen my investment is still covered.

Do you have any good local shows nearby? With a green horse you're going to want to take them to as many places as you can. The thing about the rated shows is that they're so darn expensive. And again, the more money you put in, the less you're going to get out! Entry fees alone cost me about $5-600 a show for one hunter division, possibly without warm up classes. Entry fees at our local shows (B shows) are about $150. They still get the show environment, all the local people get to see the horse go around, and my area has a few state H/J Show associations that accrue points. The way ours work is that for every ribbon they get in that division that year, they get a certain number of points. Then at the end of the year they get ranked and awarded ribbons and prizes. Their points don't stick with them for life, but I can say, this horse was Year End Champion in 2010 in the .95 M or something. As a buyer I'm not that impressed if a horse was champion at one show, but if he's year end champion of the state? Well, that means he did ok! The more wins you can get on record the better! The downside to showing at all the local stuff is that if you have an extremely competitive horse they may not have the classes you want to enter in, and they may not draw the audience you'll want to market the horse to. The question for me is also, what caliber the horse is. If the horse is going to be a super fancy A rated horse, I'll make the investment. That's the audience I want to market that horse to. They won't care if he's champion at a local show. If he qualifies for Indoors? They'll take him more seriously. One of the ponies I just sold was good as gold, but not super fancy. I didn't waste my money doing the rated stuff but took him to tons of local stuff.

"Green" is kind of an ambiguous word in the show world depending on what division you're talking about. Usually it means he hasn't jumped a certain height. And it's usually for a hunter. If I were to show my Baby Green horse in a 3" class? I can no longer show him in the Baby Green division. He broke his green status and no longer elligable. So I'm careful when I move my hunters up because you can't always move them back down. Moving a horse up is really up to you and what your goals are. LIke I said, I wanted to try for a year end award with that baby green horse last year and he's not for sale. So I kept him showing at that height all year long. Now he has a record of being successful in that division. But the jumper I was talking about? I didn't care as much about his record. But I wanted him to have proof of doing well in a higher class and didn't want to waste time in the lower classes just for a year end award. So I moved him up. He's for sale and I can market him as a 3"6 horse because he has proof of doing well at that height. If I had kept him at 2"6 all year it would be hard to sell him as a 3"6 horse because people want proof that he can do what I'm selling him as. Does that make sense?

For rated shows the horse has to have a recording number with USEF. You just pay it once and they're in. The rider has to pay a yearly membership. I think it's around $120 a year.

There's another novel for ya!
    02-15-2011, 10:43 PM
Well, hopefully if things work out. She's never owned a horse but I know that she'd like to as well as myself :)

Yes, the local farms here have shows every once in a while and we have a horse complex near the fairgrounds that always has something going on. Wow they cost THAT much? Holy.. I probably wouldnt be showing at super high class out of state shows (mainly jumper) unless in a year or two I managed to find the perfect jumper to actually keep to help me continue on. My dream is to go to the olympics but I know that it'll take a while to get there (although I don't plan on giving up like many people eventually do, even after being successful at a young age).

So pretty much if I wanted to make $4,000 or somewhere around that range, yet not spend too much on going to a lot of the rated shows and stick to perfecting the local shows, then I don't invest too much? Would they still get sold for a good price if theyre clocking in good placings at the locals and not the rated shows?

Also what is the difference between AA, A, B, and C shows?

And yeah it sort of makes sense.. So basically with a hunter, you'd like to spend more time getting a more consistent record at under 3' and earn points for that, then if all goes well, you move up the next year if the horse schools well at that height? As for jumpers, you start off low and if the horse seems like it can go higher, then move it up in order to show that the horse is capable of showing at all at a bigger height?

Ok so how do I know what is rated/unrated again?

Gosh, I've been the biggest horse person I know (well when I lived in california, I was only around horse people:P ) here where I live, yet both in CA and the east coast, I've only done barn shows with an easy pick and choose what you want to enter in and just pay for each class.. all this other stuff is so foreign for me :( I wish there was a book explaining all the basics!

Oh I just realized.. is a division (like you said for hunters) a few classes, or just one class?

As for equitation.. do you do any of that? I don't "major" in that.. my barn(s) on the east coast are all hunter/jumper, although one was eventing which I liked, but in california I saw a lot more jumpers there. Anyways, should I be worried about training a horse for equitation? I mean of course I'll be looking for the horse to have a nice form and head/tuck over the jumps!

Do you think it would be possibly for me to have a horse for 6-9 months MAX and train it + show it a little and still get good money for it IF the horse has a lot of potential? I read that the market for green horses isnt looking too good right now /: But I'm also not THAT experienced where I can just whip out a $40,000 horse or some olympic jumper.. that's my initial goal though :P

ANYWAYS - thank you for continuing to write these "novels" for me.. I love reading things like this as I said before, and learning so much I don't know!
    02-18-2011, 06:45 PM
Green Broke
Yes, unfortunately rated shows are ridiculously expensive. That's why I often don't take many of my prospects there unless 1) someone else is paying for it (like if they're being leased) or 2) they're fancy enough that they can bring in enough money to cover the expenses.

How much money you make is really going to depend on your situation and area. We have a huge local circuit around here that's really quite decent. Most of the horses are worth around $8-20,000. So my strategy is to buy some pony out in someone's field for about $1000 (needs to be decently cute, MUST be kid friendly), put a bunch of training into it and sell it for about $10,000. IMO, it's not terribly difficult to sell a kid friendly pony who's had at least a year of show experience for 10k. BUT, I put in so many expenses that I only make about 2-4000 on each pony. One pony I broke completely even. Fortunately, I have yet to lose money, but to be quite honest it's only a matter of time. Rated show horses are worth much much more, but your market is more limited. One of my friends is a real estate agent. She says she hates selling houses that are $500K because only so many people can afford a house that nice so it sits on the market a while. But a $100k house? She says she sells TONS of those a month. She'd rather stick to the cheaper house and sell more of them. That's kind of my personal viewpoint on selling horses too. I'd rather sell more, cheaper then to sell a $100,000 horse. I don't have the time or money to travel the country to market the thing. I know trainers who sell 6 figure horses frequently on the A circuit and love it, but that's not what I want to do.

Also what is the difference between AA, A, B, and C shows?
Technically, according to USEF I think it's amount of prize money given away. But pretty much, C shows are schooling shows. Most relaxed, most lenient judging, lots of people there to learn. B shows are what our local shows are. Not quite as competitive as A shows but a little fancier then C shows. We don't braid at our shows but everyone wears pretty much what you would wear to an A show (jacket, no half chaps, etc). A shows are more national recognized shows. Strictest judging, most competitive horses and riders, etc. AA shows are like A shows, only usually they're bigger and more competitive since they'll offer more prize money. A and AA shows are rated. B and C shows are unrated.

I wish there was a book explaining all the basics!

Some people find it a bit dry, but you really learn a lot by reading the USEF rule book! :) It's on the USEF website.

Oh I just realized.. is a division (like you said for hunters) a few classes, or just one class?
A division is several classes. Usually in a hunter division you'll have a flat class (non jumping) and then about 2-4 jumping classes. Generally there will be a division Grand Champion and Reserve Champion awarded. In the local shows here the jumping divisions have about 2-3 classes. Rated shows will have about 4-5.

As for equitation.. do you do any of that?
Unfortunately I'm a professional and they don't have any pro eq classes. :( But my kids do! Eq is based on the rider. Their position, how well they ride the course, etc. In fact, the really good eq horses have a flat jump, because it's easier to be still on a horse that doesn't move much. :) I do some jumpers, but I mainly just teach hunters and eq.

Do you think it would be possibly for me to have a horse for 6-9 months MAX and train it + show it a little and still get good money for it IF the horse has a lot of potential?
It all depends on the market in your area. I know tons of people horse shopping right now but I hear the same thing... soo... who knows?

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