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Which bit to use on a strong horse? English style

11K views 24 replies 15 participants last post by  kcscott85 
#1 ·
Hello everyone ^_^
I was wondering if someone could help me find a bit for my mare. I do competitions, dressage, jumper, hunter and eventing. For the dressage, I usually use a snaffle but when I come to more difficult moves, she doesn’t respond to it. I use a Pelham for jumping, since she gets pretty excited. She’s a big horse, so I have some trouble collecting her after the jumps in the snaffle. Unfortunately, she gets on the forehand when I ride her in the Pelham. So, I was wondering, does anybody have an idea of a bit I could use that would help me put her weight on her backhand and that is also accepted in the hunter/jumper ring? And what about the dressage ring? If you have any questions, ask away! Thanks a lot ^_^

P.S.: Keep in mind that I compete in Quebec competitions.
P.P.S.: I was suggested the Glory Butterfly bit but I have no clue on if and where it is accepted in the show ring...
 
#3 ·
have you ever tried a bubble bit or a myler? google them, really good for horses that are strong and tend to do their own thing! ..do you use a chain along with your pelham?? might be worth a try..
and see when it comes to getting her collected straight after a jump , when your training you should try positioning a jump toward the area fence or a corner, riding toward it should make her slow down and come back into your hand.. if it was me id try and get her to stop 3 or 4 strides after the jump, when shes in your hand stride on straight into canter again.. try and keep her on the bridle.. keep repeating this until she cops on! it does work.. when you feel that shes listening to you keep her going after the jump and ride around to it again.. gradually work through a course of jumps like this..
Hop you can get some help from this :)
 
#4 ·
The pelham is a good choice, and a myler might be a good alternative.

On the other hand, this is probably more of a training problem than a bitting problem. You need to really work with making her pay attention to you and respond to your cues, rather than just trying to find a harsher bit.
 
#7 ·
I have a trainer that rides her 2 times a week. The problem is not in the training she has now. It's in the training she had when she was green broke. I've had her for several years now and she has improved. (Before she didn't react at all for a snaffle) But other trainers and judges have told me that she needs a stronger bit. She's a 16hh2, 1300 pound horse. I'm a tiny insect on her back. x) In a snaffle, she doesn't understand why she should listen. She's a very dominant horse, which doesn't help. And the problem with the Pelham is that it puts her on the forehand, and she just runs down the jumps. I'm really looking for a bit that would help me put her on the backhand and one that she can't set her teeth against. I have tried a bubble bit also but I have the same problem as the Pelham. The Pelham does have a chain.

I have tried the exercise you are proposing Derry Girl and she usually turns on her shoulder. When she does do it well, she won't do it correctly on a jump that has an open field after it. x) She's too intelligent for her own good! What doesn't help also is that she's Thoroughbred/Percheron cross.... with Secretariat blood on her dad's side. So she looooovveess to run. x) She's the type of horse that, if she's excited, I have to make her run fast and afterwards she is responsive. x) If I just try to tired her doing exercises, it doesn't work. x) Hope it helps x) And thank you all for your help. ^_^
 
#13 ·
I'm really looking for a bit that would help me put her on the backhand and one that she can't set her teeth against. I have tried a bubble bit also but I have the same problem as the Pelham. The Pelham does have a chain.

The bit will NEVER put the horse on the "backhand" or haunches. Training does this.


But my mare was started in a straight bar mullen mouth with chain....
A mullen mouth bit is perfectly legal for dressage but any mullen mouthed snaffle bits I have seen do not come with any chain attachment ability.
 
#8 ·
The problem is she was never taught how to be soft and supple. If she was she would respond to the bit. Being tb or not has nothing to do with it. My horse has storm cat and sectretariat bloodlines and is a lazy turtle. She was not trained properly to begin with. To do that sometimes you have to go back to basics and re-train. Start from the ground up.
A stronger bit will only make the problem worst and eventually you'll run out pf stronger bits.
 
#9 · (Edited)
I would only use the stronger bit in competitions. I ride her in a snaffle otherwise. And we did go back to step one. We retrained her all over. And she is way better than she was. But I still don't have the ''holding the reins between 2 fingers'' feel. We have tried to stop her each time she gets strong, and it just frustrates her. And she starts rearing. We have tried to push her forward when she gets strong and that works in dressage but not in jumping. I’m looking for a bit that will give me that stronger edge on competition days.

And my trainer isn't the problem. She starts horses in a snaffle. And they are superb afterwards. But my mare was started in a straight bar mullen mouth with chain.... So when I bought her and we changed her to the snaffle, I would put pressure on her back, no reponse. I would put pressure on the reins, no reponse. I would then keep pulling slowly but still no reponse. And the end, we had to put 2 hands on one rein to stop her. Now she is way better. But still not as soft as I would like her to be.
 
#10 · (Edited)
I can't do an exercise repeately. I can't even practise my dressage test before the competitions. I do an exercise twice and she knows it. Let's say after the jump, I ask her to stop after 5 strides. Well, after doing it twice, she'll stop without me asking her. So it doesn't help with the problem. x) On dressage tests, she likes the challenge but if I do the same twice, the second time around she's worse because she's bored. She'll be on the forehand, and doing the test alone.

I'm really sorry to be pushy like that but I would like to find a solution. I've tried a lot of things and they don't work long-term.
 
#11 ·
I'm really sorry for being insistent like this, but it's really frustrating to know your horse has, not only potential, but the willingness and eagerness to go forward. She loves learning new things. And when she can't understand something, she gets upset. You'll probably tell me that I'm imagining things but that horse has obviously a strong personality. I know that riding her in a stronger bit all the time will not help. I just want it for the competitions, and when I know I'll have trouble with the snaffle.


I was told that maybe a bit working less in the mouth and more on the poll would help. Since that way she can't put her weight against the bit as much. What do you think? And what about the Glory Butterfly? Anybody heard of that one?
 
#12 ·
I found with my previous horse sometimes it wasn't just about changing in to a stronger bit, but changing to a thinner version of that bit.

It won't solve the problem, as others have mentioned, she needs to learn to come off your hands by using her hind legs better. Once you go down the route of putting a stronger bit in, you'll be doing it forever.
 
#15 ·
It won't solve the problem, as others have mentioned, she needs to learn to come off your hands by using her hind legs better. Once you go down the route of putting a stronger bit in, you'll be doing it forever.
That's what we are working on. I'm just wondering if there is any other bit than the Pelham that is permitted in the hunter/jumper ring and that won't put her on the forehand so much because I'm not sure if she's going to be ready with only the snaffle for the spring time.

And the bit she was started on really has a chain... It's for draft horses. >_< They gave it to me when I bought her. I don't use it though. And I have no idea where they found it. And at first I had to put a stronger bit in, because I had absolutely no response. And now, I'm riding in a normal snaffle most of the time.

And exercises ok, but do you have any ideas? I do trotting poles set at a longer distance than usually and she does them fine. Have any ideas?

P.S.: And I was more saying she's part percheron. Judges and clinicians have told me that's why she pulls so much.
 
#14 ·
A Horse will typically lean on a leverage bit and get heavy on the forehand, because of the break in a snaffle you can stop a horse by bringing his head around to your knee spin him etc. you have to use the reins independently if you pull on your horse your horse is going to pull back and the horse is going to win every time! To quote John Lyons "Bits don't train horses, people train horses"
I would concentrate on doing exercises to make her use her hind end more, sure you can't do them at a show but theres tons of stuff you can do at home to get her to be 'light'
Also the whole 'she's part thoroughbred' thing has nothing to do with it my TB rides in a loose ring snaffle with a french link.
 
#16 ·
Yes, there are plenty of people who will tell you that the part draft is why she is heavy on the forehand. I have had my Clyde cross for 17 yrs. He is extremely heavy on the forehand and always has been. However, I have recently learned ways to make him lighter...I just don;t have the motovation to try them,since he is basically retired. Anyway, when we were still jumping he would get SOOOO heavy. I finally switched to a Waterford. Now I have no idea any more what is legal and what is not, nor do I know what a "bubble bit" is. The waterford is such that they really cannot lean on it as well as a more solid bit. I have one that is a D ring, and I use a gag for cross country. It helps, but does not solve the issue, as others have said.

My new guy came to me riding in a Tom Thumb, and was a bit strong at times. I do not jump anymore, and have gone to Western, but have spent many many months of trainers and hours of riding getting him soft. Totally soft. A couple of things specifically helped me. I learned that as soon as he pulls, if you pull back, they just brace harder. Drop them like a rock. Obviously, you should not try this cross country, but in a ring. THey start to pull-let go. THey will learn that pulling does no good. I frankly got away from a bit altogehter for about 6 months. Rode in a rope halter and found he was much more responsive. You may find that a bitless is actually better. I had one horse afraid to go forward at all in a bitless.
When your horse speeds up, don't fight and pull-do circles. When you get the speed you want-go back out on the rail.....when they speed up-circle again. Serpentines are your friend. Concentrate on using your body to turn your horse and NOT pulling! As I said, I have spent hours-many just walking (which is hardest, actually, like riding a bike slowly)using NO reins at all, turning the horse with (exagerated at first) body and leg cues. I have also come to have a much better understanding of using your body and weight to get your horse slower (as well as faster), and have mine trained to a very quiet "shhh" to slow (draft does this really well, actually). Sit very deep, breathe out and "shhhhh".
Good luck-maybe NO bit will be your solution!:wink:
 
#17 ·
I completely understand your frustration with having a horse with potential but having the feeling that you cant totally get through to them. My horse is completely insane. She was going to be my upper level (preliminary and intermediate and possibly advanced) horse but she is dangerous when she gets out there, like tearing throughout the fields blocking you out bucking etc. So i retired her from that to work on the basics. You seem to have good training but try working on the basics a little more.

When i jump my horse i use a bubble bit watterford because she cant lean on it and it has leverage. I know people always say the bit is not a solution to a problem, bits just mask the problem blah blah blah... Generally these people just hear that from other people and they think it applies to everything. In some cases bits are not the answer, but i believe this is one of the cases you could use not necessarily a stronger bit, although it is stronger, but a bit with a different action. So try a different bit and see if it helps you.

When working with a bubble bit waterford, because it is a strong bit, you cant hang on it and you have to be very very light with your hands and only use it as a last resort to get into your horse head and say hey, im up here, now listen. But when used properly you can get a nice light horse that listens to you.

Again, i dont believe that bits are the solution to every problem, and in the wrong hands they can be very bad, but if you get not necessarily a stronger bit but a bit with a different action, it should help. So if you have a horse that leans and is strong maybe a gag, or bubble bit (form of gag) will help.

So to the people that swear by, changing the bit is not the answer, they can be right in some cases, but using the correct bit can help the problem. For example, what percent of grand prix show jumping horses use a snaffle? Most use a gag because it lifts them up in front of the jump and pulls them back.

I hope that all made sense:/ sorry it was all kind of scattered.

I hope it helps! :)
 
#19 ·
Sure bits have different actions- but if my horse isn't working well in a snaffle or rope halter to start i'm not going to change bits until I get the basics down, once you have them you might use a more advanced bit with a different action to subtly correct a few things. but if i can't ride my horse with a snaffle to start I am not going to advance.
Also I know of a percheron who rides dressage and he rides in a snaffle his owner had to do a lot of training to get him where he is now though.
 
#24 ·
The problem is that each of your desciplines have different requirements and different bits are considered correct. I would guess it is the jumping where you need the most help?

I tend to stay away from any bit that has a harsh mouthpiece. You will never find any wire, twists, waterfords, etc.in my tack room. However, I may have some bits with poll pressure. I have a Dutch (bubble) that I will occasionally use with two sets of reins. I also have a full cheek gag bit (not as bad as it sounds). These bits work by adding pressure to the poll nerve to get the horse's attention.

On a couple of my event horses, I have used a kineton noseband. This is a good tool for pullers.

::: Sustainable Dressage - Tack & Auxillary Equipment - The Bridle & the Bit :::


While I will agree that training can be a cause, it is not always a fix. I have ridden many extremely difficult event and jumping horses that were just too full of themselves. If you think you can undo some of them, have at it!!
 
#25 ·
I'm a full believer in what David O'Connor says: train in a snaffle, compete in whatever gets you through safely. My old intermediate/advanced event horse was a 17.3hh Irish Sporthorse that didn't understand the concept of "optimum time" in x-country and just wanted to make sure he had the fastest time...ever. It was a heck of a time finding a bit that he even seemed to notice. We eventually settled on the Waterford Nelson Gag bit and that made all the difference in the world. Because it's collapsible, he couldn't get a grip on any part of it and just gave in and listened.

As you already know, bits aren't a substitute for training, and I would never recommend riding in this on a routine basis. Like Allison Finch above me, I refuse to put a harsh mouthpiece in a horse's mouth- I believe that only makes the problem worse, since that is a constant pain (can you imagine metal twists or wires always sitting on your gums?)

Anyways, I wish you the best of luck! Bitting, unfortunately, is mainly trial and error since what works for one horse may not work for another.
 
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