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Crank Noseband

This is a discussion on Crank Noseband within the Horse Tack and Equipment forums, part of the Horse Tack category
  • Is a cavesson noseband the same as a crank noseband
  • Crank noseband too tight

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    03-21-2013, 01:48 PM
  #11
Started
You didn't need to write an entire paragraph. It just could have been worded a bit better A simple "my horse doesn't need a flash and I personally don't like them" would have come across much better in text.

No biggie, it just read really snarky. But whats done is done and now knowing it wasn't meant in the snarky tone its all good My apologies for reading it in the wrong tone.
     
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    03-21-2013, 01:51 PM
  #12
Green Broke
Quote:
Originally Posted by ~*~anebel~*~    
Wow let's learn about correct use of tack for a moment :)

The purpose of a swedish - or crank - with a flash is for use with a loose ring snaffle. The flash is meant to stabilize the bit in the horse's mouth that the loose rings are not clanging around. Not to "crank the horse's mouth shut".
I own various bridles with various closures. I do prefer a flat buckle on a noseband, as well I prefer the noseband to be large enough that it is on the second to last hole, or the last hole. That way, it is nearly impossible to get too tight by anyone. I do have cranks, and they do look nice, and as long as it is me doing them up, I am happy with them.
Honest question - is there any difference in function between a crank noseband and a plain cavesson when both are tightened to "2-finger" tightness?
     
    03-21-2013, 01:52 PM
  #13
Trained
Nope
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    03-22-2013, 01:12 AM
  #14
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by ~*~anebel~*~    

The purpose of a swedish - or crank - with a flash is for use with a loose ring snaffle. The flash is meant to stabilize the bit in the horse's mouth that the loose rings are not clanging around.
that's the flash part though. Same function essentially as a drop noseband, which IMO is the better option. Maybe that's just me, but trying to combine nosebands [flash strap on any cavesson type is trying to combine a drop and a cavesson whether you like the idea or not!!] just doesn't work. You want to stabilize the bit use a drop. Just my opinion.

What is the purpose of a crank, in and of itself [mine doesn't even HAVE a flash attachment tab], if not to make it possible to tighten the **** thing about 4x as hard? Why would you want/need the pulley system if not to crank the horse's mouth shut harder than you can with a flat buckle?

I'm not buying that they're easier to buckle. I find the opposite. And my filly is a BIG girl, 2 years old and 16hh+, and can be a bit head shy. Her old bridle, since grown out of, was a plain flat cavesson, and was much easier to buckle than her crank. The leather is nicer in the crank too, so it's not leather quality.

I did catch the part where you said you prefer flat buckles, but unfortunately that isn't the case for so many, many people. I have spoken with people who won't use anything BUT a crank with a flash. Same people, generally speaking, have horrible hard and unstable hands, and are usually mounted on young horses, or horses they trained themselves.

I have NO PROBLEM with a crank that is used by someone who actually has a clue. Unfortunately, too many do not. They put bigger and bigger bits in their horses' mouths and then progress from a plain noseband to a flash [misused, to crank the horse's mouth shut] to a flash on a crank [tightened as far as the person can physically manage] and occasionally on to a grakle also severely over-tightened. Then if the horse reacts negatively, it gets branded dangerous and euthed. Or worse, ends up like my gelding a couple of owners ago - neglected and forgotten in a pasture somewhere.

The above process of bitting up and putting bigger and bigger nosebands on the face is what happened to my gelding - a superb jumper and event horse - and on top of that, a rider who REALLY didn't have a clue and was jumping wayyy higher than they were ready for, therefore was yanking on his mouth over every single fence.

And they wonder why the horse starts stopping, bucking, rearing, doing everything in his power to ditch his rider? He gets branded dirty and dangerous and 'retired' from competition and riding [he was TEN YEARS OLD when this happened and perfectly sound and sane, just the rider was an idiot], is lost to knowledge for four years, and turns up horribly neglected [a ONE on the body scoring chart with feet that clearly hadn't had any attention for a very long time] and essentially abandoned at a boarding facility.

This is just one horse's story but you see how much damage harsh tack in the wrong hands can do... my boy still has huge issues despite the fact that he is now rising 18 and for the past almost four years has had riders who actually have a clue. I had a run-out while jump training a week and a half ago and he just freaked out. Bolted, took me ten minutes to get him under control again. Poor guy :( [he ran out because I keep him forward enough that he really can't hit the skids, and he has a knee issue I didn't know about... I'm guessing the big stuff hurts him because he has done bigger in the past and is an incredibly honest jumper]

I personally, honestly, believe that people should have to have a license to use anything more than a plain noseband [MAYBE a flash] and a snaffle bit. All tack has its very valid uses in the right hands, with a few notable exceptions that have no place in a horse's mouth, or anywhere near one in any form, but unfortunately all too often it ends up in the wrong hands.

Apologies for the rant, it's a topic that hits a few very sensitive nerves for me because of what happened to my gelding.
     
    03-22-2013, 01:38 AM
  #15
Trained
IMO that's not the fault of the tack and mild compared to what happens in some barns.
I think drops are more dangerous than a crank with a flash, and more easily misused. At least you cannot break a horses nose with a crank unless it is grossly low on the horses face. An overtight drop is dangerous. And overtight crank is uncomfortable.
People will do what they will do but at least there are now rules about tightness. Of course we cannot control what anyone does at home, but that is not a new thing.

ETA there are also bridles which can be tightened with an Allen wrench, on the subject of nosebands.
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    03-22-2013, 03:02 AM
  #16
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by ~*~anebel~*~    
I think drops are more dangerous than a crank with a flash, and more easily misused. At least you cannot break a horses nose with a crank unless it is grossly low on the horses face. An overtight drop is dangerous. And overtight crank is uncomfortable.

ETA there are also bridles which can be tightened with an Allen wrench, on the subject of nosebands.
Posted via Mobile Device
I cut out what isn't really relevant to the comments I want to make so I apologize for paraphrasing.

At least you see fewer misused drops! Actually you see fewer drops allround, they seem to have fallen out of fashion, but... yes most people who use a drop use it for the wrong reason [more leverage to keep the mouth shut], however I have not seen a single one that's overtightened. People who use drops generally have a clue as to how to correctly fit a noseband. Probably because people won't stand for seeing an overtightened drop because they can do so much damage.

But has it occurred to you that an overtightened flash can be just as dangerous? They can severely restrict breathing and I have even seen it cut off one horse's breathing almost completely. Poor thing. They can also do the same amount and type of damage as an overtightened drop. And an overtight crank isn't just 'uncomfortable'... it's damaging. Have you seen the damage an overtight noseband can do inside the mouth? A crank is even worse. Even well cared for teeth can cause horrible ulcers in the cheeks if the noseband is too tight.

Like I said I have no problem with them in the right hands, but unfortunately the design of a crank encourages misuse. With mine, I have to be extremely careful when I'm doing it up not to over-tighten it, because it's so easy to tighten. I have buckled it, then checked and realized it was WAY too tight, more times than I care to count. What if I didn't check? The horse it's on is TWO. It would cause so many problems, so many holes in her training, if I was the sort of person who liked to do up nosebands until it wasn't physically possible to tighten them any more.

I said, if you want to support the bit in the mouth, a drop is your best bet. If you know enough to want to use a noseband for that purpose, then chances are you aren't going to misuse it.

My advice to ANYONE wanting to clamp the mouth shut is to take the noseband OFF altogether [yes that's right, no noseband at all!], go back to a full cheek, smooth snaffle [or a D-ring], and fix the holes in the horse's training. A noseband is NOT designed to fix problems. That even includes a figure eight/grakle noseband - they have their purposes too other than stopping a horse from crossing its jaw! There is some bit stabilization with a grakle, and such a noseband will never interfere with a horse's breathing, which is why they are such a popular choice for showjumpers and event horses.

I have a strong horse. He is the sort of horse that many people want to put a flash and crank on. Plus a strong bit. I have him in a French link snaffle and flat cavesson noseband. No crank. No flash. No nothing. I like to have a minimum of leather on my horse's head, and a minimum of metal in his mouth. I feel like the last of a dying breed sometimes :/

Regarding tightening with an allen key, holy adkflajdfajfdlajf you can't be serious?! How is that legal? It's abuse, plain and simple.
     
    03-22-2013, 03:11 AM
  #17
Weanling
I ride my horse in a crank and flash - I prefer a plain, thick cavesson, but he is pretty green and needs the flash at this stage of training. I don't do the crank up tight, either. However I can't wait til I can get him into a plain cavesson, I just think they look smarter.

One other thing about drop nosebands - I find that the leather on both flashes and drops rots over time due to horses foaming. At Least with a flash you only replace a strip of leather, not a whole noseband. That's why I stopped using drops - I think they look very smart, much better than flashes, but too expensive to replace!!
     
    03-22-2013, 03:25 AM
  #18
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by minstrel    
I ride my horse in a crank and flash - I prefer a plain, thick cavesson, but he is pretty green and needs the flash at this stage of training.
It is hard for me to understand why a green horse would need a flash noseband. I can see using one on an older, cagey horse that has learned lots of evasions. But a green horse should be learning how to accept the bit and also should be given the right to tell you where he is not understanding what you are asking and about whether this particular bit is comfortable for him.

A gaping mouth is a sign of something, and in a green horse it can tell you a lot about his acceptance of your training, teeth issues if he is young, or issues with his mouth size/shape and the particular bit you have chosen.

As far as stabilizing the bit goes, if your bit is really sloppy in the mouth then it is either the wrong size, the bridle is adjusted poorly, or it is not a good fit for this particular horse's mouth.
     
    03-22-2013, 03:53 AM
  #19
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by gottatrot    
It is hard for me to understand why a green horse would need a flash noseband. I can see using one on an older, cagey horse that has learned lots of evasions. But a green horse should be learning how to accept the bit and also should be given the right to tell you where he is not understanding what you are asking and about whether this particular bit is comfortable for him.

A gaping mouth is a sign of something, and in a green horse it can tell you a lot about his acceptance of your training, teeth issues if he is young, or issues with his mouth size/shape and the particular bit you have chosen.

As far as stabilizing the bit goes, if your bit is really sloppy in the mouth then it is either the wrong size, the bridle is adjusted poorly, or it is not a good fit for this particular horse's mouth.
Did I say he needed it because he was gaping his jaw? No. And I said 'green' not young - he's a 9 yo OTTB, in the process of being retrained. So don't jump on me based on assumptions please.

It happen that a loose ring snaffle has quite a lot of movement in it, as the mouthpiece isn't fixed to the rings, so you get movement along the ring if the horse plays with the bit. The flash isn't to 'stop him gaping his jaw' but to stop the movement of the snaffle, as he has that racehorse habit of 'chomping on the bit' and he does chew at the bit. The flash holds the bit in place and means he can't do this. It's nothing to do with a gaping jaw - he has a surprisingly soft lower jaw for an OTTB.

Edit: I better clarify, before I get jumped on again, that he only chomps at the bit when excited, like when we go out hacking or he knows we're jumping. When I have him concentrating he is lovely and soft. So it is something we will work through, but the flash helps in the meantime.
     
    03-22-2013, 04:04 AM
  #20
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by minstrel    
Did I say he needed it because he was gaping his jaw? No. And I said 'green' not young - he's a 9 yo OTTB, in the process of being retrained. So don't jump on me based on assumptions please.
Nothing personal. There are a lot of better options than a flash noseband for a green horse that plays in a loose ring snaffle. Just my opinion. If a horse plays excessively, you can see if he likes another type of snaffle better that is steadier in the mouth (such as a myler bit or one with different cheekpieces), add a curb strap to the snaffle to keep it centered, use a different mouthpiece such as one with a copper roller, add bit guards in case it is pinching his cheeks, etc.

If horses are happy with the bit they generally accept it within a couple of weeks of riding. If they continue with excessive mouthing, then that might be a clue to check over things again. Probably he was always ridden in a Dee ring if he was an OTTB, so he might be more comfortable in that.
     

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