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Difference between Pelham bridle and snaffle bridle

12K views 31 replies 11 participants last post by  bubba13 
#1 ·
I was looking around for a show bridle for Cinny since his is a bit old and I'm not sure how much longer it will last and I came across some on ebay that are great condition, known brand but say they are pelham bridles. What is the difference between a pelham bridle and a snaffle bridle? I like the look of some of the pelham bridles can a snaffle be used instead. I'm thinking I can, but something tells me I should ask before buying one.
 
#8 ·
The curb rein on a snaffle is always a little thinner than the snaffle rein. A normal bridle is used for both the pelham and the snaffle. Reins can be any type you want just as long as the curb is a little thinner than the snaffle. And is worm without a drop noseband, usually just a flat cavesson :)

Hope I helped :)
 
#12 ·
And I cringe seeing the pelham with the converter. They should absolutely never be used.
For a young rider they are fine - just reduce the action of the bit and allow little fingers more control. TBH with a converter they are very like the action of the Uxeter with the rein in the bottom loop.

I'd rather see it used like this than to see a terrified child hauling on a snaffle bit.
 
#16 ·
I agree, but other than a rider not having the ability to use double reins there is no purpose for a converter. Anyone skilled enough to use a leverage bit, but doesn't want to deal with double reins should use a kimberwick.

I suppose I see no plausible reason why someone would buy a specific bit just to use it incorrectly.


*zips mouth tight*
 
#17 ·
Lets see,

Because they like it

Because horses don't read books and don't know about refinement in bits and persist in liking certain things.

Because they were brought up with seeing people choose to use the pelham with roundings and just got used to it and see no reason to change.

Because in a free world you can :wink:
 
#18 ·
Who decides and defines "correct" versus "incorrect"? Surely not the inventor of the bit converter....

There is actual a significant difference in action between a "rounded" Pelham and a Kimberwick. Each have their merits, I suppose, but I'd far rather use the former. For example, it has a much better "presignal," giving the horse the opportunity to respond to lighter pressure and thus making it gentler.
 
#19 ·
Just my .02 -

I am not a fan of either the Kimberwick or Kimbelwicke or the pelham ridden with a converter. Here's why - a pelham ridden with two reins gives great flexibility in terms of how much and what type of rein aid given, which makes it a great training tool - you increase or decrease the pressure on the curb rein depending on the horse's response. You can actually soften a horse, and train it to respond to a subtler aid, by using ask/tell/demand and engaging the curb on the tell and demand. Fox hunters have been known to knot the curb rein and leave it on the horse's neck as sort of an emergency brake; they ride on the snaffle rein and only picked up the knotted curb rein when they need to "hold hard." This method preserves the horse's snaffle mouth and responsivess. When you put a converter on the pelham, you've effectively eliminated the flexibility; you'll have a certain about of leverage action regardless of the amount of contact or how tactfully you ride.

When I see a horse bitted this way (pelham w/converter), I tend to suspect the rider is going to have to continue to "up the ante" and escalate to more and more severe bits to get the same result. Since you're engaging leverage to the same degree at all times, there's no incentive for the horse to respond to a lighter aid.

I actually prefer the pelham with converter to a kimberwicke. Part of the reason is personal experience. I have never, ever seen a horse ridden in a Kimberwicke that didn't learn to overflex and go behind the bit to avoid it. I suspect this has to do with the added action of the port as that's the key difference between the two.

It was a fairly common sight in the hunting field to see a horse in a Kimberwicke, chin in it's chest, charging through the field with no brakes and the rider pulling futilely away. It may function perfectly well as a western bit, intended to be ridden on loose reins and the leverage action engaged intermittently; but I have never seen it used effectively as an English bit.

I was enormously relieved when they were banned in the hunter ring, the bit itself seems contrary to the goals of the discipline.

I am not sure "presignal" is relevant to a discussion of English bits intended to be ridden with constant contact.
 
#23 ·
I am not sure "presignal" is relevant to a discussion of English bits intended to be ridden with constant contact.
Still allows for "jingling" feel. A Pelham of any sort has no place in the dressage ring, being an illegal curb and all, but it seems more suitable for jumping and hacking, where there may not in fact always be constant contact.

Though it seems the discussion is continuing over here: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-tack-equipment/pelham-converters-108815/
 
#20 ·
A childs safety is paramount and if the Pelham with roundings makes it easy and safe for them to stop then this bit is ideal. If you want your child to continue and ENJOY riding surely you would want them to be in control.

I am involved with Pony Club in a big way as an instructor and as an examiner. I would far rather see a child able to stop there pony easily with a gentle aid than to see them hauling furiously or being carted across the paddock crying, unable to stop.

One of the problems with the Kimblewick and Uxeter is that people fit the curb chain above the bit, forcing the pressure onto the jawbones - painful. When the chain is brought through the rings the chain then sits in the chin groove and allows the bit to work correctly.
 
#21 ·
puts on flamesuit




LOOK, out in the real world there are lots of people who just want to ride, their cues are not subtle, their equitation may not be great, but their horses are well cared for, they actually get on and ride even if it is just tooling around on trails. All these wonderful folk care about is being able to stop go and steer, and a single rein, with a pelham and roundings may just fit the bill. It may not be technically correct, but if horse and rider are happy then what does it matter.

Because of my previous choice in horses, I've ridden, worked with and owned several cobby type ponies, short thick strong neck, and usually thick tongued. Very often these sort of horses go well in a mullen mouth pelham, with roundings. I had one lying about here from a previous horse in the UK that fits Bert, Bert who hangs and bores through a snaffle, who hates and gets behind a curb, goes very nicely and lightly in a pelham, and yes I use the roundings, I have enough to think about when riding her without worrying about two reins.

As I say, I don't believe it's great equitation, but it suits both of us, and I don't think I'm harming her in any way. Last year I started Mr G in one after his winter lay off, just gave me that little bit of reminder that I needed for a few rides.
 
#22 ·
A snaffle bridle should have slightly wider cheeks as it is exposed to more strain. A pelham bridle can be narrower. A single snaffle rein is also wider for the same reasons. On the pelham the snaffle rein can be narrower with the curb rein narrower yet. A pelham bridle will have a more delicate appearance than a snaffle bridle. Hope this helps.
 
#25 ·
Still allows for "jingling" feel. A Pelham of any sort has no place in the dressage ring, being an illegal curb and all,
Huh? I'm not sure what you mean here. There are a lot of English disciplines besides dressage. And a pelham is not an "illegal curb", it's just not a legal bit, same as bi-metal bits and a host of other mouthpieces that are very useful in the other English disciplines.

but it seems more suitable for jumping and hacking, where there may not in fact always be constant contact.
REALLY not sure what you mean here. Except for a loose rein warm up and cool down, jumpers and hunters are always ridden on contact, hunters on a soft, passive, following contact, jumpers on a more active one. If by hacking you mean hacking out, if a horse goes boldly enough to need a pelham or kimberwicke, they're probably ridden on contact hacking out as well. If by "hacking" you mean riding on the flat, again, except for a loose rein warm up, constant contact is the norm.

I suspect you're trying to apply a concept from Western bitting to English disciplines where it's not relevant. I have never heard any English trainer or bitting expert, anywhere, including Jimmy Williams, talk about "presignal" in bits.

GH, If you want to ride in what works for you, go ahead. No flame suit necessary. And as Tnavas said, sometimes it's a safety issue - put a bit on the horse that allows the rider to stop the horse, worry about the rest later. However, this conversation started about theory and design and how bits are supposed to work and that's the angle I approached the conversation from.

Tnavas, while I accept your example, I think we can both agree your Pony Clubber isn't educating that pony, or softening its mouth, and that it's likely that some bit escalation will need to occur down that road.

GH, if it works for you, that's fine. However, when you get to the point you'd like to teach the horse to be lighter, rather than just coping with the boring and heaviness, consider the knot in the curb rein of the pelham method. Pick up the knot and ride the curb when the horse is leaning, drop it when she's not.
 
#26 ·
GH, if it works for you, that's fine. However, when you get to the point you'd like to teach the horse to be lighter, rather than just coping with the boring and heaviness, consider the knot in the curb rein of the pelham method. Pick up the knot and ride the curb when the horse is leaning, drop it when she's not.
With Bert we are actually trying to lighten her by starting at the beginning again, I took her out of the pelham and have been working her in a eggbutt Myler snaffle.

I hadn't thought about using the pelham with two reins, seeing as the pelham isn't dressage legal, but it may just be a great way to help her during training, I'll have to try it.
 
#29 · (Edited)
I'm not sure what part of that post was directed at me at what was directed at other posters, but for the record, I never said anything about cringing when I saw the pelham with a converter. I did say that riding it with a converter robs it of its flexibility and what makes it a useful tool, and that I didn't care for it or the Kimberwicke.

A Pelham isn't legal in dressage because the dressage rules call for a horse to be in a snaffle until it reaches 4th level or beyond. As I also said, bi-metal bits and a host of different mouthpieces aren't dressage legal, either. So saying "illegal curb" isn't wrong, but neither is it accurate.

bubba, I'm also curious as to what your hands on experience is with the equipment we're discussing? I know you as primarily a Western rider, have you ever ridden or schooled a horse in any of these bits?

My original statement was that I was "not a fan" of either the pelham with converter or the Kimberwicke. Not a fan of the Kimberwicke, period, because of no flexibility, and not a fan of the converter because it robs the pelham of desirable flexibility. Not that I was dictating who was correct or incorrect.

You're absolutely right, some Grand Prix jumper riders do use the Pelham converter set up in the ring. But I'm willing to bet you a paycheck that that's not what they school the horse in at home, or ride in one a regular basis. Because I believe a rider of Eric Lamaze's level, or any other Grand Prix jumper rider can both manage the complexity of two reins and values the flexibility both a snaffle and curb rein provides. That they may prefer the expediency of the converter while competing doesn't change that.

That's different than someone saying they use these set ups because they can't stop their horse and they can't handle two reins. That person is using the converter as a crutch, IMO. In tnavas's example, 6 - 10 yo Pony Clubbers on bratty ponies?? Eh, I don't know, I still don't like, but again, safety and expediency may come first. You've got to keep the kid from getting killed or scared before you can teach them to ride at a higher level. However, I might try what I suggested to GH first, riding with both reins and knotting the curb rein of the pelham on the horse's neck.

Yes, hunter riders crest release, and elementary hunter riders may ride on loose reins. And pleasure riders rider on loose reins a lot, including me. However, riding on loose reins with leverage bits really doesn't make a lot of sense to me. A horse that needs a leverage bit to hack out or pleasure ride probably isn't ridden on loose reins, a horse that's stablized on loose reins and hacks out quietly on loose reins probably isn't in a leverage bit. But I still don't understand what "presignal" on these bits has to do with anything. Maybe because it's a Western concept, which I have absolutely no experience with.

So if you can explain how "presignal" is somehow an advantage on these bits while being ridden as they typically would in an English discipline, I'd appreciate it.
 
#32 ·
bubba, I'm also curious as to what your hands on experience is with the equipment we're discussing? I know you as primarily a Western rider, have you ever ridden or schooled a horse in any of these bits?
If I can get it, I've used it, for better or for worse. My dun gelding is going right now, as a matter of fact, in a rubber mullen Pelham....with two sets of reins. He's becoming more accepting of this bit than most others, though at times I'm afraid I really have to hang on the curb rein--I'm trying to wean both of us off that. His past, unfortunately, ruined him, and his first instinct upon feeling pressure is to brace and bolt mindlessly, because that's what roping taught him. High-headed, too. Due to his poor conformation, stifle/hock problems, and past-life baggage, I've never gotten him to any sensible degree of true collection. The Pelham, however, has gotten him to at least relax and drop his head more than any other bit, rather than tensing and blowing forward like a locomotive.

I tried my ported Myler Pelham with the roundings I bought on my sorrel mare recently, and she went as well in that as she does in anything else. I think they would be more suited to a different mouthpiece, however. Keep in mind, too, that this particular Pelham is marketed as a barrel racing bit, and is thus intended to be ridden on a curb rein only. But it's a great bit--one of my favorites.



As for what I have ridden, I actually started out as a saddleseat rider, of all things. I was taught to handle a double bridle at age 10....but not exactly in a way you'd approve of. We were always on the curb, tightening it every time the horse poked its head beyond the vertical.



(not me, but it was that kind of stuff, and that's a photo from the website of my former instructor)

From that extreme I went in the polar opposite direction with barrel racing. I think I've shared enough there to broadcast my experiences and successes in that venue, and the methodology I and others used.

After and during that, it was to the H/J/Dressage barn. I had a couple "Centered Riding" style lessons, and rode the horses the way the owner requested, in her saddles and her French-link snaffles. No official training in those disciplines, though, and I don't profess to know much about them.

Now it's just trail riding, and I long for the day I get my next horse to start from scratch. The only two sound riding horses I have left are beyond my capabilities to "fix." Training is so, so, so much easier than retraining. I've made mistakes and learned from them, but can't go back in time to correct them, and I've taken on other people's messes, too. Bah. I'm gonna do the next one right, dammit, or die trying.

Back on the subject of bits, here's about half my collection:



That photo was taken several years ago. I've sold some and gotten a bunch of others. All told, I'm over 50 now. Which doesn't mean I currently use all of them, though I've certainly done my share of experimenting. All of my barrel racing combo bits are currently piled in a bag in the trailer, but I just can't quite bring myself to list them for sale, just due to their sentimental value....

And that's probably a whole lot more than you ever wanted to know!

Not a fan of the Kimberwicke, period, because of no flexibility....
I agree with this statement completely, though I think you and I are defining "flexibility" in different terms. :wink:

You're absolutely right, some Grand Prix jumper riders do use the Pelham converter set up in the ring. But I'm willing to bet you a paycheck that that's not what they school the horse in at home, or ride in one a regular basis. Because I believe a rider of Eric Lamaze's level, or any other Grand Prix jumper rider can both manage the complexity of two reins and values the flexibility both a snaffle and curb rein provides. That they may prefer the expediency of the converter while competing doesn't change that.
This just gets a bit silly to me. So Olympic-caliber jumpers are allowed to use it, and clumsy little toddlers on Shetlands are allowed to use it, but it's entirely unsuitable for everyone in between the two ends of the spectrum?

Yes, hunter riders crest release, and elementary hunter riders may ride on loose reins. And pleasure riders rider on loose reins a lot, including me. However, riding on loose reins with leverage bits really doesn't make a lot of sense to me. A horse that needs a leverage bit to hack out or pleasure ride probably isn't ridden on loose reins, a horse that's stablized on loose reins and hacks out quietly on loose reins probably isn't in a leverage bit. But I still don't understand what "presignal" on these bits has to do with anything. Maybe because it's a Western concept, which I have absolutely no experience with.

So if you can explain how "presignal" is somehow an advantage on these bits while being ridden as they typically would in an English discipline, I'd appreciate it.
If you're riding with no slack at all in the reins, then there is no advantage at all. But if you are giving and taken enough for a little droop--enough to, say, take the curb chain off the chin (because keep in mind that, depending on how tight your chain is adjusted and how hard you are pulling, you will not always have jaw pressure when curb rein is picked up)--then the horse can feel the difference and respond with greater subtlety and finesse. Would this apply to the typical showjumper or hunter rider? Probably not. But to the happy hacker or the non-by-the-books, for-the-fun-of-it rider? Absolutely.
 
#31 ·
Thanks for the responses guys. I just mainly wanted to know if I could use my snaffle with this bridle. I'm not ready for a Pelham or anything more than a snaffle right now. We are barely into Training Level dressage so, no biggy. I just wanted to know if there was a difference because the "Pelham Bridle" was on special and the Snaffle bridle was not, and I couldn't see any difference. Would rather pay 25 dollars less and have the second set of reins than to pay 25 dollars more, just because they are calling them two different things :)
 
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