Draw reins? - Page 4

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Draw reins?

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    01-10-2008, 11:54 PM
Originally Posted by drop_your_reins
I'm not trying to jump down anyone's neck about what they believe.. To each their own.. I just felt the need to defend the use of draw reins.. I'm personally not into the whole NH thing, but I have nothing against it either.. I have something against people making accusations that a practiced training method is cruel or forceful just because its not the way they would go about it. People have to start seperating the equipment from the abuser. Very few tack items were designed to inflict harm or will inflict harm no matter what. They inflict harm when people go beyond the tack's original goal.
Agreed. The biggest problem with any tack/training aid is the USER.

I have seen the NH thing pushed a lot more everywhere lately, so I can see how it might irritate some people, but there are valuable things to help communicate with your horse that some who say they do not practice NH probably uses on a regular basis :) it is just funny because with some people it is like if something gets tagged with the NH name, it annoys them, but it might be something they do anyway in everyday training (such as using the presence of your body to move your horse away from you - NH is big on horses respecting the presence of the human, and moving their feet when pressure is added by that human's presence in a certain way...I am sure many who are not a fan of NH do that). I am not a big NH person either, but I sure have found plenty of NH activities and skills that I LOVE. NH can be mixed in with anyone's regular training routine (if they care to :) ). I think the problem is more in the NH term...more people probably practice NH but just don't call it that...often, it is just good horsemanship!
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    01-11-2008, 12:00 PM
Originally Posted by AKPaintLover
I think the problem is more in the NH term...more people probably practice NH but just don't call it that...often, it is just good horsemanship!
Exactly! My problem is that these things have been practiced probably since man first got on a horse. And yet, natural horsemanship shows up only a few years ago and all the big trainers act like it's something different. There are differences, sure but like AK said, it all stems from good horsemanship that most people used already.

But now, it's turned into some kind of good cop, bad cop scenario. The natural trainers are all telling you they can make you a "partner" with your horse so that you don't have to "fight" it with tack like draw reins. AND YET they are all pushing their own line of tack whether it's a bitless bridle or a carrot stick (the name in itself is a contradiction) or most relevant to my point a "natural" hackamore.

You know why people see differences between a "natural" hackamore and a regular hackamore? Because Pat Parelli sells it and slaps the name "natural" on it! that's all.

You've probably picked up if you've read any of my posts that I have a problem with NH but not with the techniques. That's because the techniques are not original to these so called Natural Horsemen. They've been practiced for ages. I used to do NH with my horse, and I was amazed at how quickly he picked up on what I was teaching him. After a while, however, I realized that he only got it so fast because it was no different than what I did before using NH.

Draw reigns have no less credibility than anything else a natural horseman will sell you and the usefulness is no more diminished. I will say it again, draw reins are a very straightforward, understandable piece of tack. There is no reason to down them.
    01-11-2008, 01:02 PM
Actually, the name "carrot stick" is not a contradiction. Pat called it that to remind people not to be just carrot people (ones who use only love love and more love and no leadership) and not to just be stick people (the ones who use force and aggression), but to be an extreme middle-of-the-roadist. Be as gentle as possible but as firm as necessary, not one more then the other.

And just so everyone knows, Pat and Linda have dropped the term "natural" out of their vocabulary. They now call it simply, the Parelli Program. They did this because as we all know there are so many "trainers" out there who claim to do NH when in fact they are not. Pat coined the term NH and now it's gotten out of hand. It's over used and the validity that it had at one point is now gone b/c everyone and their brother can say "Oh yea, we do NH." So they call it the Parelli Program b/c it's a documented program and they don't want to be attached to the term NH because of what it's become, which is NOT what Pat wanted when he coined the term.
    01-11-2008, 01:26 PM
So, I guess you're no longer a Natural Horseman Spirit, but you're a Parellist? That's good to know. My respect for the Parellis just grew a fraction.

Still my point remains, draw reigns are just a piece of tack, the same as any other you buy from people who dislike draw reins.
    01-11-2008, 03:34 PM
I guess you could say I'm a "Parellist" But I look at things the way Pat WANTED NH to be, not like it is today. IMO, even if NH is a catch phrase over used in today's horse industry, Pat is what NH SHOULD have been (in the industry).

At any rate, I still feel like draw reins are unneccesary and I personally will never use them, but hey, that's fine. To each their own. I don't think they are cruel or inhumane or abusive (unless in really bad hands) but it's not something I'll have in my tack room.
    01-11-2008, 05:58 PM
I'll definitely admit that I use "NH" everyday, but I just refer to it as "common sense" horsemanship... I don't follow the teachings of any big NH trainers or anything, but practiced and traditional training techniques as well as going out on a limb and following my gut. I think most of the "NH" trainers have taken techniques that people have been doing before the invention of cars and just put their name on it..

All successful horse people have been doing "NH" with horses for as long as and before they've been successful... Anyone who uses true force will not be successful in the industry (at least not for very long) because not only will the horses break down mentally, but most likely physically as well. In order to get the best out of a horse, you have to be on their level of communication. Just because I don't call myself a natural horseman or follow the laws of whoever to the T, doesn't mean I don't implement most of the things they say anyway. Just because I don't play Pat Parelli's games, doesn't mean I don't have just as much of a bond or high level of communication with my horse.

Just because someone coined the common sense laws of horsemanship and is making money from it now, doesn't mean most horse people have been doing these things for years.

Things that I (and most other horse people) do that are considered "NH" but really, I think they're just common sense.

-Pressure and release training. (Ever wiggle your reins to get a horse on the bit, then stop when they respond? Ever ask a horse to trot or canter? Ever ride at all.)
-ground work, "playing" in the arena with my horse [Tao Equus?], long lining
-using grooming time and cooling out time as a time to "bond"
-ending lessons, training sessions, etc. on a good note.. (i.e. Positive reinforcement)
-establishing yourself as "lead mare" or using herd mentality to get through to your horse

I'm sure there are plenty of other things..
    01-11-2008, 07:17 PM
Originally Posted by drop_your_reins
I'(Ever wiggle your reins to get a horse on the bit, then stop when they respond? Ever ask a horse to trot or canter? Ever ride at all?)

*drop_your_reins gets added to the list of awesome people*
    01-11-2008, 07:45 PM
Pat says himself that he didn't invent any of this stuff. It's been around forever and it's "so old it's new again" as he puts it. Or used to put it years ago.....
    01-12-2008, 12:20 AM
Oh my! What happened to the days when someone could have an opinion and express it without fear of being run down for it. So spirithorse has her way and her beliefs. And then others have their beliefs. This does not make her wrong and everyone else right or vice versa. Its just like religion...everyone fights because everyone has different ideas when in reality each person should be allowed their beliefs without anyone else giving them a hard time for it.

I think everyone needs to give spirithorse a break and understand that she has a view and is allowed to have it. If someone is so infuriated by her view then maybe its best to say nothing at all. Debating is fine, don't get me wrong but some of this debating is getting a little personal and turning more into put downs than 'view sharing'
    01-12-2008, 12:58 AM
I'm sorry if you're referring to me. I certainly don't want to inhibit anyone's opinions, but I was just expressing my own. I thought it was healthy debate, actually much better than I've seen on other topics, and I wasn't trying to be offensive. I was responding to her (your) comment..

"I'm with jazzyrider on this one. I would never use draw reins. There are great ways to teach your horse to lower his head or whatever besides throwing on a piece of equipment to MAKE him do it. "

I was just defending its use and stating that with a deliberate amount of force any type of horse equipment can force a horse to do the same thing, draw reins are not in a class of their own. Everyone is certainly entitled to their opinion, I'm sorry if I seem a little intense or closeminded.. I'm just stating my opinion just like everyone else, I just might be a little more convicted in my opinion.. I don't know.. Somehow the discussion shifted from draw reins to natural horsemanship in general, and again I was just stating my opinion. If you love NH, good keep with it.. its far better than the way many people treat their horses.. But I'm not in an extremist either way, so being 100% devoted to Natural Horsemanship is certainly not my thing.. Like I said before I don't have anything against NH, but I do have opinions on it.

If I sounded hostile, I'm sorry.. Tone isn't an easy thing to convey over the computer, I'm not a cold hearted (insert terrible name here), I swear. Just convicted in my opinions and just like everyone else, I have the right to share... I'm rambling, but I don't think I was vulgar or offensive and neither was my intent. I'm sorry if you got that impression.

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