The Horse Forum banner
Status
Not open for further replies.

Looking for Advice re: Billy Cook and Saddle Fit

11K views 33 replies 9 participants last post by  DebRVT 
#1 ·
Hello everyone, I am sorry for this long post but am feeling confused about what I should do for me and my horse.

My mare, Tink is a 3.5 year old tan coloured fjord x quarterhorse.
She recently came home from almost 3 months of professional training for trail and western pleasure riding.
Before she went away, I bought a vintage Billy Cook saddle. We tried it on her a few times and it appeared to fit fine.
A couple weeks after coming home (and maybe 4 rides by me), I noticed the hair on her withers was white.
I was riding her in the above noted saddle and a reinsman tacky too saddle pad.

I immediately asked a couple people who have years of horse experience to check the saddle fit and they both think it fits her well.
I have since dumped the tacky too saddle pad as I think it might be contributing to the rubbing on her withers.

I am now wondering if it was the multiple riders and therefore possibly multiple saddles and pads that she had on during her training that caused this issue to start.
However, I am scared to continue harming her as I have read the white hairs are caused by too much pressure on that area.

So my questions:
How do I know if the rubbing/excess pressure is still there when the hair is already damaged/white?

Tack store not too far from me called Inenson's who has offered to check her saddle fit and possibly trade mine in for a new one if it's not right. Thinking strongly about doing that as I have heard good things about the owner's experience.
Which brings me to my next question, as I do not find my saddle comfortable for me.
Do I give up on what should be a very well made Billy Cook because I don't love it even if it fits her well?

I want to note that even though she is very calm and has an awesome ground tie, she seems to be showing some avoidance when I am trying to get the saddle or pad on her in the last month.
Vet checked her back and says he doesn't sense any pain but I am unsure why else she would literally try to move away when she sees the pad or saddle going over her back.

Sorry again for the long post. I don't want to mess her up now as she is so young!!
 
See less See more
#3 ·
Thank you TinyLiny. I appreciate your response :)
I am strongly considering getting this saddle checked somehow. I guess I am still trying to decide between the owner of the tack store's experience or a more sophisticated method like the Saddlefit4life program.
I don't work her hard but I still want what is best for her.
I was kinda hoping the white hairs and apprehension were caused from her time at the trainers but I have no idea how to tell.
 
#4 ·
I would suspect that if the white hairs appeared shortly after coming home, the damage could have been done at the trainers, as it takes time after taht pressure, for the white hairs to appear
Did you ever see her ridden at the trainers' with his tack, and noticed how that saddle sat on her?
Seeing she is a Fiord cross, i suspect she would need a full quarter horse tree, and most western trainers would be riding on semi quarter horse treed saddles, as those are 'standard fit for today;s stock horse types
 
#5 ·
from The Horsecom:

"The white hairs appear as a result of pressure from a saddle and may be the only visual sign that a problem exists," says Harman. "The pressure alters the hair follicle, which then produces a white hair. If the damage is not too severe, and the pressure is removed, the white hairs may disappear at the next coat change; however, many times enough damage is done to the hair follicle that the white hairs become permanent. The only solution is to change the saddle fit."

In other words, first the follicles are damaged, and then the white hair grows in-so not immediate

Here is the entire link on saddle fit problems and symptoms

Saddle Fit | TheHorse.com
 
#6 ·
Thank you Smilie!!
Unfortunately no, I did not see her being ridden at the trainers as it was 3 hours away. I only saw her a couple times during that 3 months and I brought my saddle.
I read that article that you posted the link to and am sad to find out that the hair may always be damaged in that area.
I suspect you are right though - this likely didn't come up from my saddle over the week I had her home.

Now I am just worried that I won't be able to see pressure points if my saddle doesn't fit as the hairs are already damaged :(

Going to try to arrange something to check her saddle fit ASAP.
 
#7 ·
Based on what you describe, I'd go saddle shopping for several reasons.

#1 Saddle doesn't fit you and you are uncomfortable which will change how you ride. If you're squirming or sitting wierd, you can put pressure on areas that you normally wouldn't which could make her sore.

#2 Do you give up on a well made Billy Cook that fits the horse because it doesn't fit you? Absolutely, see #1.

#3 If the hair is damaged, it's damaged and there's not much you can do about it, just move on. I don't think that she's necessarily sore at this point, but the avoidance can be a 'leftover' from an ill fitting saddle at the trainers. It can also be because you are apprehensive about putting your saddle on the horse and she's sensing your nervousness.

#4 I would go with experience over a gimmick like "Saddle Fit 4 Life". There's no such thing as a saddle that will fit for life, especially on a 3 year old whose body is still growing, changing and developing.

"she seems to be showing some avoidance when I am trying to get the saddle or pad on her in the last month.
Vet checked her back and says he doesn't sense any pain but I am unsure why else she would literally try to move away when she sees the pad or saddle going over her back."

She's a 3 year old, barely broke and horses are MASTERS at trying to get out of work. Just go on about your saddling and make her stand for it or you will be teaching her that it's ok to move all over when you're trying to saddle. Then she'll start when you're trying to mount. Stop it now and teach her that tying and standing means STILL.
 
#8 ·
Thank you Dreamcatcher for your thorough answers and advice!!
I think I "fit" ok in this saddle, just don't find it comfortable but you are right, I should find something to either make it more comfortable or get one that I am comfortable in. Just scared of all the poor quality saddles that seem to be out there.

I never thought about her sensing my apprehension but that could very well be. I am going to try to just stay relaxed and make sure she understands that she is to stand still for tacking up!!

I thought the Saddle fit 4 life was literally a program where they would come back every year or so and do testing and re-adjustments. But I am unsure if they would even consider me at my very small barn with my western trail riding horse - LOL.
I will try to get an appointment with the gentleman at the tack shop for now.
 
#9 ·
Your horses shape changed from the time you sent her to the trainer, while at the trainer and will change again now that she is home from the trainer.

As for that saddle....use it to bargain and bring down the cost of something that is a good fit for the horse and a good fit for you.
There is no reason for you to be miserable sitting in a saddle....find one that fits both of you and is comfortable.
Please don't think that there are no good saddles out there today unless you spend a fortune...that is just wrong.
There are many well made saddles available used or new and they don't have to cost a fortune.

I just swapped/traded a no-name saddle that was beautifully tooled and silver plated for the show ring for a "named" saddle that fits my one horse better and works for trail riding...we needed "strings" not fancy silver corner plates to secure items.
That swap of saddles actually gave me some $ in my pocket and I came home with a older Circle Y in nice shape...

Don't despair and do look around at more than one saddle shop if they do consignments...inventory changes.
I found when I was looking I sat in what felt like hundreds of saddles....looking for comfort and balance for me....horses fit was first though.
Once I sat in a few saddles I found what brands were more comfortable and then I could narrow down the trees in those saddles till we found a match for the horse then me....

Me, I would start searching for a comfortable saddle for the horse and me though and stop with what makes you miserable....
If this persists, maybe a chiro needs to be consulted as something could be out of align even slightly causing the horse discomfort...
:runninghorse2:.....
 
#10 ·
True - I am sure her shape has changed a bit after being worked everyday to now being home again.
I only bought the Billy Cook because everyone said I would never need another saddle but I know there are other good quality saddles out there - just seems like there is a lot of crap or saddles with absolutely no reviews that I can find.

I have sat in a few friends saddles and think I know the general idea of what I want.
I have a couple tack shops in mind - just the one I mentioned is willing to spend the time with us to ensure saddle fit and can likely take mine on trade-in if it truly doesn't fit her. Sadly not a lot of western tack shops near where I live :(
 
#11 ·
@Smilie already mentioned it. You most likely need to be looking at saddles with full quarter horse bars. Most modern Quarter Horses are on the smaller side, and a semi-Quarter Horse bar is meant for them, and that is what many newer saddles have as the standard.

Like others I think it is likely that she was ridden in a saddle that didn't fit at the trainers. You mentioned it is at the withers. I'm not an expert, it could mean that she needs a wider and taller gullet. I suppose it could also mean that the fit was so poor below the gullet along the bars that the pressure point was placed on the withers. It could be worth your time to contact some good saddle makers and get their opinion.

For your part I'd be looking at the pocket, leg path and how the stirrups are hung. I recently bought a saddle with a deep pocket that fits me properly and I don't think I could go back to anything else.
 
#12 ·
She is a pretty thick backed horse, especially above her rib cage. I don't know a lot about the differences in bars but I think you are right about her needing the full quarter horse bars after the research I have done.
I also was wondering if maybe the gullet was too narrow or bars too close together on the saddles she has been ridden in.
My major anxiety is still whether this issue is being perpetuated by her current saddle.

So, I have decided to just go ahead and book an appt to have someone with lots of experience check the saddle on her.
My barn owner has suggested a sheep skin cover may help with my comfort on this saddle but my horse's needs come first.

I have to agree that I think a deeper seat would probably feel more comfortable.
 
#13 · (Edited)
Semi-QH bars are narrower. They do not fit a typical QH very well. They do fit my slender/high wither Arabian crosses:



It was a pretty common build back in the 1800s (note, this was the favorite horse of a 6'5" sheriff in Arizona - look where the stirrups hang. Bet HE had no problem mounting from the ground :???:):



Not so common in QHs in 2016.

White hairs often stick around. This is a picture of Trooper when we first got him. He had been loaned to a ranch in Colorado where they spurred him bloody, and he still has lumpy, bare flesh on one side. They also used a saddle to create two symmetrical white spots at his withers. Those spots are still there 8 years later.



One option to consider is the Steele 'Fit-To-Be-Seen' program. It isn't free. I think I spent $200 on shipping charges, but it allows you to SEE how well a given tree matches your horse's back - or not:




"J - Semi-Quarter Horse (Semi)/Arabian (Arab) - Steeper front and rear rafter angle and closer-spaced bars relative to Standard Quarter Horse fit when positioned at standard spread. In addition, sufficient bow (rocker) enables this fit to conform well to the short Arabian back having a narrow wither dropping off quickly to the shoulder.

D - Standard Quarter Horse (SQ) - Approximate 92º front rafter angle. Good front flare, bow and upturned tails to avoid bridging and bar edge pressure points.

TF - Full Quarter Spread (FQ) - Same bow (rocker) and wind (twist) as 'D' fit with an additional 1/2” front spread ('GW+1/2' or '+1/2') than standard.

NE - Straight-Back Quarter (SBQ) - Similar flare and rafter angle to the 'D' fit with much less bow. Developed for straighter backed, well collected horses. Also works well for mules that require a flatter front rafter than the 'SE'.

AW- Full Wither (FW)/Arabian (Arab) - Flared out front and rear to allow for full or mutton wither with no pockets. The resulting bow enables this fit to conform well to the short Arabian back having wide withers rounding out into the shoulder. The AW has also been found to work for more dipped-back draft horses.

X- Performance Quarter (PQ) - Flatter front and rear rafter angle and less convex front bar pads allow for the broad wither and well-developed shoulder muscles of the highly trained, daily ridden working quarter horse. A more open waist facilitates collecting and core development."

Steele Saddle Tree LLC - Fit To The Horse

Steele is the largest maker of saddle trees in the US, and I think it makes it obvious what size STEELE tree fits. Other makers use different measurements for a "FQHB" tree, for example, but they ought to know how their tree compares to a STEELE tree.

A former HF moderator only used a couple of trees over his riding life. When he went to buy a horse, he took his saddle with him, tossed it on the horse's back, and only continued looking if his saddle fit the horse. I would probably do the reverse, and consider a new horse an excuse for a new saddle...although my wife doesn't understand that rationale. And Bandit fit Mia's saddle well enough, so using him as an excuse to buy a new one is going to be a tough sale!

BTW - Sheepskin covers. Some people hate them. I love them. I consider them safety equipment because it makes it very easy to stick to the horse when the horse does something unexpected. I think of them as butt velcro - particularly on my slick seat, slick fork saddle:



Once worn in, it lifts my butt maybe 1/4-1/2 inch, but it is like a super-rough out leather seat, only easy to clean. I often wear a helmet, but I view the sheepskin as a more valuable piece of safety equipment than a helmet.
 
#14 ·
@DebRVT, Don't feel discouraged. It's a process and one that we all seem to go through at some point.

You said in a previous post that you bought the Billy Cook because you thought it would last forever...an investment of sorts. Billy Cook used to make a pretty good saddle, but over the years their quality has diminished. You said you got an older one so it may be of better quality...but at the end of the day you don't like it. My suggestion to you- do not skimp on your comfort. I agree that the horse's comfort should come first, but your comfort should be a close second. An uncomfortable saddle for the rider can often contribute to other issues. Saddles are meant to be an aide for you- to assist and help the communication between you and your horse.

Are you looking for an investment? Are you planning on keeping this horse for a long time? Do you know what western discipline you are wanting? I ask because it may be beneficial for you to go custom, or semi-custom. As other's have said, look for FQHB and maybe go for something with a buster welch tree. A lot of ranch cutter saddles are built wide with that tree, and they have a bit of a deeper seat.

OOh- also, could you post some pictures of your current saddle on her?
 
#15 ·
Bsms - thank you for providing the link to that option of the Steele tree fitting. I assume if I went with that though - I would then have to find a saddle with a steele tree with the exact letters as what fit my horse.
Sadly I just don't think I have enough knowledge to make that process easy.

Thank you for sending the pic of Trooper. I can see the white hairs will not likely be a good indicator of saddle fit going forward for my mare.
 
#16 ·
Jenkat86 - thank you for your advice.
Tink will be with me until the day one of us dies so I am considering a saddle that will fit her fairly well in the longer run as an investment for sure!!
I really am not looking forward to buying a new saddle every year as I find it frustrating with my inexperience.
I really just plan on using her for fun, trails and some extreme cowboy obstacles and such.
But I am also not willing to just deal with a saddle that doesn't fit her right just because I don't plan on working her hard (as a co-worker suggested) :(

Still considering booking a consult with Saddle fit 4 life as I think it will really help with some of my anxiety - at least about this current saddle and what to look for in a new one if needed.

I will try to get some pics of her in the Billy Cook for you.
This saddle was made in the late 70's as far as I know so I was told is likely high quality craftsmanship.
 
#18 ·
There are only two kinds of people who think saddle fitting is easy. People who never notice their horse is in pain and people who got lucky. I guess there are also people who always ride the same-backed kind of horse so the saddle that fits one fits all. For everyone else, especially novices, saddle fitting is generally frustrating. It can take a lot of perseverance. But do not settle for a saddle, no matter what anybody else says about it, that doesn't fit both your horse and you. Good luck!
 
#19 ·
It is good to hear that I am not alone in my frustration!! I had no idea about saddle fitting being such a big deal until I started reading into why there were white hairs developing on the sides of Tink's withers.

Jenkat - I have booked a consult with a certified saddle fitter because I agree, if nothing else I will probably learn a lot.
She is not affiliated with any saddle company anymore so there should be no push to buy a certain type of saddle. She just wants to help me find what's right for my horse so looking forward to that.
 
#21 ·
I got mine from here:

https://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=2e87c363-7b6a-11d5-a192-00b0d0204ae5

They make one that doesn't go as far down:

https://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=2e87c362-7b6a-11d5-a192-00b0d0204ae5

I like the full size one because it allows the thighs to have grip if things get exciting. My daughter isn't totally thrilled by them, and she uses the smaller size because Dad wants her to use one. The larger size one is in the background on my wife's Abetta:



My daughter's horse is our "Steady Eddie", which may be why she doesn't value them as much as I do. Mine, which I posted earlier but for easy side to side comparison:


 
#23 ·
Hi guys, I took some pics of Tink's saddle on her today with no pad on.
I also watched a very basic 9 steps to saddle fitting guide on you tube today by Schleese and sadly this saddle failed 5 of those 9 steps in my opinion :(
Also today she was worse than ever for standing to get tacked up. I stopped her from moving and made her stand but it was still sad to see her anxiety about it even though I was relaxed.

I also took a video and couldn't believe how much the back of her saddle bounces around when she moves.

So won't be riding her in this saddle again until I get some more experienced help.
 

Attachments

#24 ·
In the first 2 pictures, I have my fingertips behind her shoulder blade and then at her last rib so ot also appears this saddle is also too long for her.

In the 3rd picture, you can see how much this saddle sits off her body at the back.
 

Attachments

#26 ·
to me it looks like the saddle is 'falling' forward, and ending up really putting a lot of pressure on her shoulders, and raising the back.

personally, I really dislike inskirt rigged saddles, like that one. they can pull an ill fitting saddle down hard, so you can't 'see' the bad fit.

your mare is telling you something. mares are experts at that. best you listen.


the front is too wide gullet for her.
 
#28 ·
LOL re: mares being experts at telling you something is wrong.
I am listening!! I will not be riding in this saddle anymore, I do NOT want to risk hurting her.

I feel awful that I had no idea what I should have been looking for before this point :(
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
You have insufficient privileges to reply here.
Top