Severe or not?? Argentine snaffle - Page 3
 
 

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Severe or not?? Argentine snaffle

This is a discussion on Severe or not?? Argentine snaffle within the Horse Tack and Equipment forums, part of the Horse Tack category
  • Can you use a curb chain with a argentine snaffle
  • Argentinian severe horse bit control

 
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    10-21-2009, 05:35 PM
  #21
Trained
Quote:
A snaffle with shanks and a curb chain is very severe.
* A curb with a broken mouthpiece. Nothing snaffle about it :]
     
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    10-21-2009, 06:02 PM
  #22
Trained
I wouldn't start a horse in a hackamore. They are designed and have been used for centuries as a stepping stone between the snaffle and the spade bit. I doesn't work well with direct reining because the reins are attached at the same point so that when you pull on the left rein the hackamore turns to the right and puts pressure on the left side of the face. Just use a snaffle and if you must use a hackamore get educated about how it's supposed to be used.
     
    10-21-2009, 06:07 PM
  #23
Trained
I have said it before and I will say it again THE BIT IS ONLY AS HARSH AS THE HANDS USING IT. I have seen people use snaffles and I thought they might as well have barb-wire in thier mouth for the damage it was doing. I have a horse that I ride in a bit that would send many of you into convulsions but he was prepared for it is comfortable in it and does really well in it.
     
    10-23-2009, 03:33 AM
  #24
Yearling
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinshorses    
I have said it before and I will say it again THE BIT IS ONLY AS HARSH AS THE HANDS USING IT. I have seen people use snaffles and I thought they might as well have barb-wire in thier mouth for the damage it was doing. I have a horse that I ride in a bit that would send many of you into convulsions but he was prepared for it is comfortable in it and does really well in it.
That is a vague statement that is only half the truth. I agree that the hands of the rider are very important, but there are bits with different severity and designs for a very obvious reason. A light pull on a lozenge snaffle will feel very different to a horse then a light pull on something that is designed to be more severe, like a twisted snaffle combination bit. A horse can feel the difference between two bits without any rein contact at all. The bit could be pressing against the roof of their mouth, pinching their tongue, rubbing their lips, etc; all without someone yanking on the bit. A severe bit in gentle hands is still that- it is more severe then a snaffle bit in gentle hands. A severe bit causes greater infliction of discomfort and pain, therefore the rider has no need to give a hard pull because a small pull will cause enough discomfort to have false control over a horse. If a horse is said to "need" a harsh bit, it is because the only way the rider can control the horse is through pain and discomfort.
     
    10-23-2009, 05:27 AM
  #25
Super Moderator
Quote:
Originally Posted by wild_spot    
ANY BIT with leverage, is a curb. Any bit with zero leverage, is a snaffle. A bit with a broken mouthpeice and shanks, is a curb with a broken mouthpeice, not a snaffle. A snaffle doesn't necessarily have a broken mouth piece, it can be mullen mouthe
UMMMM, not really.

Gag bits have leverage, but are not curbs.....
Dutch jumper (ring) bits have leverage, but are not curbs.
Elevator bits have leverage, but are not curbs.

These both use leverage to pull the crown piece of the bridle onto the poll nerve, not the jaw. Kinder than a curb, IMHO.

I don't like argentines because they have all the severity of both curb and snaffle (nutcracker action on jaw) but none of the kindness.
     
    10-23-2009, 07:50 PM
  #26
Trained
^ Technically, any gag or elevator bit IS a curb, they are just classified differently to make them easier to identify. A snaffle is any bit that has a 1:1 pressure ratio - A curb is any bit that has a greater pressure ratio than 1:1.
     
    10-23-2009, 08:44 PM
  #27
Weanling
Personally... I don't like Argentines... My friend rides her gelding in one, and is always giving trouble with it...
And for a curb...? Mullen mouths are great as well as jr. Cowhorse bits.
     
    10-23-2009, 09:51 PM
  #28
Super Moderator
Quote:
Originally Posted by wild_spot    
^ Technically, any gag or elevator bit IS a curb, they are just classified differently to make them easier to identify. A snaffle is any bit that has a 1:1 pressure ratio - A curb is any bit that has a greater pressure ratio than 1:1.

FYI


GAG BITSReturn to the top of this page These bits are usually jointed and offer similar action on the horse’s mouth to regular loose ring or egg butt snaffles. In addition they put pressure on the poll. A special cheek piece is used that slides through the holes in the rings of the bit. By pulling on the reins the rider pulls the cheek piece through the bit putting pressure on the poll. It is important to release rein pressure more quickly and completely than with regular snaffle bits to ensure that the cheek pieces return to normal and do not keep pressure on the mouth when not needed. Some riders use two reins using the regular rein when the horse is behaving normally and severe pressure is not required. A second rein is also a safety rein since gags are used in extreme cases and reins sometimes break. Care should be taken with the condition of the cheek pieces and use of these bits; excessive pressure can pull the bit up high into the mouth of the horse causing damage to the horse’s mouth. Gag bits are available in loose ring and egg butt designs. Some with links in the middle (French, Dr. Bristol, rollers etc.). The thickness of the mouth piece is usually from 10mm to 13mm. Most gags are solid mouth. Sizes available are from 5" to 5 3/4" in most designs. Pictured here is an egg butt gag # 1712.
**S.S. NR KRM RUB Fr. Rlr CPR Tw Cs

3 RING GAGReturn to the top of this page is also called a European elevator, or an American gag or an American elevator bit. Another name would be the continental gag bit. These bits operate similarly to a pelham without a curb. Some riders use two reins, allowing the one rein to act like a normal snaffle rein. Depending on the ring chosen to attach the lower rein, the poll pressure can be severe. These bits are frowned upon by some experts. They contend that there are other bits that perform the same functions better and more safely than these bits. These bits are also made as
2 ring and 4 ring versions. The bit shown is normally called a 3 ring gag. (Some books call this bit a 4 ring European elevator bit, or a 4 ring gag). These bits are usually 12mm to 14mm thick and available in sizes 5" to 5 1/2". Some people use a slightly larger size on these since they usually have a loose ring at the end of the mouth piece. A larger size is needed if rubber bit guards are used. Pictured here is a 3-ring gag Happy mouth # 17373
     
    10-23-2009, 10:51 PM
  #29
Trained
I know what both of those bits are, and personally know people who use them, thanks.

The point is, BOTH apply more than a 1:1 pressure ratio = curb. I can find numerous pages on the internet and in books that describe a tom thumb curb bit as a snaffle - Doesn't make it any less false. Just because a bit doesn't look like a western curb, doesn't mean it isn't a type of curb. The very definition of a curb is simple - Applies a pressure ratio of more than 1:1, which both of those bits do.
     
    10-24-2009, 08:37 AM
  #30
Weanling
Ew would never use something with shanks and a broken mouth, that's asking for trouble, your plan sounds good however id leave out the Argentine snaffle
     

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