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post #11 of 27 Old 03-28-2009, 12:12 AM
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Yes - a TT pelham is as harsh as a western TT bit. A broken mouthpiece kimberwicke is almost as harsh b/c of the reasons stated above.

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post #12 of 27 Old 03-28-2009, 11:25 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Britt View Post
You are talking about the Tom Thumb SHANKED bits... not the Tom Thumb SNAFFLE bits... right?
Technically, they are Shank bits with Snaffle Mouths =)

I'm talking about these:


The Grazing Shank (longer curved shanks)


The Normal Short Shank

CJ82Sky: Ah, gotcha. I was thinking about posting the Pelham as well. I just put my old Kimberwick next to my Tom Thumb to compare shank size, and the Kimberwick has a shorter shank (by maybe 1/2 inch or so). I see the Tom Thumb ragged on so much, but never see anything about snaffle mouth Kimberwicks or snaffle mouth Pelhams, though they do the exact same "harsh" thing.

Thanks for all the input guys =)

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post #13 of 27 Old 03-28-2009, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippy! View Post
Technically, they are Shank bits with Snaffle Mouths =)
Technically they are NOT snaffle mouths - as snaffle simply means any bit with DIRECT pressure as opposed to curb which means any bit with indirect pressure/leverage.

A tom thumb has no snaffle rein and therefore regardless of the mouthpiece is NOT a snaffle bit or a snaffle mouth. If there were reins attached at the same point as the mouthpiece - that would be considered a snaffle rein, and this would then be considered a COMBINATION bit - however this is neither a snaffle mouth nor a combination bit as it does not work in multiple ways (direct + indirect pressure) on the horse.

The multiple effects on the horse's mouth come from the BROKEN or SINGLE JOINTED mouthpiece (often mistakenly referred to as a snaffle b/c of it's common use on a direct-rein pressure bit) which causes nutcracker action. Because the broken/single-jointed mouthpiece is on a shanked/curb/leverage bit, the resulting effect on the horse is both nutcracker action on the jaw (again not snaffle action as there is no direct rein causing the pressure) coupled with leverage action on the jaw from the curb chain and slight poll pressure from the leverage of the shanks being drawn back from the mouth.

Hope this helps clarify - sorry to be such a stickler but it kills me when people refer to anything with a jointed mouthpiece as a snaffle as that is not correct. Similarly, even a mullen mouth (mouthpiece with no joints) that has reins that attach at the same level of the mouthpiece and works on direct pressure is considered a snaffle, despite the lack of any joints in the mouthpiece.

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post #14 of 27 Old 03-28-2009, 01:11 PM Thread Starter
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Ah, gotcha. I have always referred to a broken mouthpiece as a "snaffle mouth" because of it being a broken mouth piece.. so your post was really informative for me =)

I love learning <3!

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post #15 of 27 Old 03-28-2009, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippy! View Post
Ah, gotcha. I have always referred to a broken mouthpiece as a "snaffle mouth" because of it being a broken mouth piece.. so your post was really informative for me =)

I love learning <3!
Glad to help :)
It's a very common confusion!

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post #16 of 27 Old 03-28-2009, 02:14 PM Thread Starter
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It must make your blood boil to read through Horse Tack Catalogs! 3 out of 5 tack catalogs i have on hand market the Tom Thumb as a "snaffle!" And most of the online stores do too!

LOL! It is amazing how widespread that misconception is!

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post #17 of 27 Old 03-28-2009, 03:07 PM
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A

If I am not mistaken even Myler uses the term snaffle to refer to the broken bit. How the heck are people to really know this is wrong when many large bit making companies use it? Grrr

Back on the topic of use. I used a TT on a horse years ago. He went fine in it, never had any issues. Oh and I don't think the first bit pictured is a TT.. In my understanding the second one is. The straight shank is one of the identifying marks.

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post #18 of 27 Old 03-28-2009, 03:41 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Appyt View Post
If I am not mistaken even Myler uses the term snaffle to refer to the broken bit. How the heck are people to really know this is wrong when many large bit making companies use it? Grrr

Back on the topic of use. I used a TT on a horse years ago. He went fine in it, never had any issues. Oh and I don't think the first bit pictured is a TT.. In my understanding the second one is. The straight shank is one of the identifying marks.
I know! I guess because "broken mouthpiece" sounds like there is something wrong with the bit to people who don't know any better, LOL!

And the first pic i posted is indeed a Tom Thumb, it just has the longer grazing shanks on it. When i bought it it was called "Tom Thumb with grazing shanks" but, as we discussed, it could just be the bit companies misinforming us! LOL! The second one is a standard shank Tom Thumb =)

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post #19 of 27 Old 03-28-2009, 05:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippy! View Post
I know! I guess because "broken mouthpiece" sounds like there is something wrong with the bit to people who don't know any better, LOL!

And the first pic i posted is indeed a Tom Thumb, it just has the longer grazing shanks on it. When i bought it it was called "Tom Thumb with grazing shanks" but, as we discussed, it could just be the bit companies misinforming us! LOL! The second one is a standard shank Tom Thumb =)
Both bits pictured are a tom thumb - a western tom thumb is a bit with shanks and a single jointed mouthpiece (i'm pretty sure - will research some more now to be positive).

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post #20 of 27 Old 03-28-2009, 08:22 PM
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according to pc manuals. The nut cracker action on a bit with shanks will over ride any curb leverage making it a rather mild bit.
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