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Abuse or Training?

This is a discussion on Abuse or Training? within the Horse Talk forums, part of the Keeping and Caring for Horses category
  • How to brake my horse from tring to kick at me

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    12-17-2011, 07:48 PM
  #11
Super Moderator
Did the 'stabbing' with the hoof pick break the skin? Did the horse bleed? Anything less is a 'poke' and not abusive.

The kicking -- hardly abusive. I have yet to see a woman that could injure a horse by kicking it. She might break her foot, but she is hardly going to cripple the horse. [I saw a big, strong farrier break his foot once kicking a horse in the belly.]

So abusive? No.

Stupid? Yes.

Ineffective? Yes.

Good training methods? Not hardly.

Sounds like a person that gets frustrated easily. Sounds like a person that loses their 'cool' and, instead of thinking, just reacts.

I would still think that it was better than having someone nag and peck and get no response at all. Learning how to train effectively and without temper takes a lot of maturity as a trainer. It takes someone that uses their head and not their impulses and temper.
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    12-17-2011, 07:51 PM
  #12
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Horse    
I would need to have actually seen the incidents to call abuse here, I often have used a hoof pick to reinforce the 'push' to get a butt off of me, there is a world of difference between a poke and a stab, but different people will call the same thing by different descriptions.

If A horse is threatening to squash me, showing huge disrespect by getting in my space then bet your booty they will get a poke with a pick or whatever.

Kicking, why, how when what for??
It was more than a poke but to my surprise it didn't draw blood. The reason she did it was because he wasn't moving his butt out of the way enough to let another horse walk by. He was in cross ties. She kicked him because he was walking off when she was trying to get on him.
     
    12-17-2011, 07:54 PM
  #13
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuffyDuck    
Unless you can clarify the force of what was done, no help can be given.

Sure, its not an up to date method, and I wouldn't be impressed with anyone booting my horse. I wouldn't call it abuse, nor would I call it training.

Abuse? No- the size of a human in comparison to a horse, and the speed in which they kick out, and kick each other is NOTHING. You'd have to get a very well aimed kick to get any tender spots. I saw my YO kick his stallion's 5th leg. Not hard, but to get him to put it away- disrespect.
Hoofpick.. you say stab, did it draw any blood? If so- that is abuse.

Although it is an unsavoury method of punishment, I wouldn't call it abuse. Before running to a new yard have you thought about talking to this trainer to prevent this happening to your horse and the reasoning WHY she did it?
She kicked him because he was walking off when she was trying to get on him. Which doesn't make any sense. She stabbed him with the hoof pick because he wasn't moving his butt over to let another horse get by. No it did not draw blood.
     
    12-17-2011, 07:55 PM
  #14
Banned
The hoofpick thing is dumb--I'd smack one for that before I'd sink a hoofpick in 'em. I reserve hoofpick stabbings for when a horse kicks or bites me and that happens to be the weapon already in my hand.

As for kicking (booting or kneeing during mounting)....I've been there. And I must say, if the horse is walking off due to inattention or whatever, it does work. Maybe not the world's absolute greatest method, but effective and not abusive.
     
    12-17-2011, 07:56 PM
  #15
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherie    
Did the 'stabbing' with the hoof pick break the skin? Did the horse bleed? Anything less is a 'poke' and not abusive.

The kicking -- hardly abusive. I have yet to see a woman that could injure a horse by kicking it. She might break her foot, but she is hardly going to cripple the horse. [I saw a big, strong farrier break his foot once kicking a horse in the belly.]

So abusive? No.

Stupid? Yes.

Ineffective? Yes.

Good training methods? Not hardly.

Sounds like a person that gets frustrated easily. Sounds like a person that loses their 'cool' and, instead of thinking, just reacts.

I would still think that it was better than having someone nag and peck and get no response at all. Learning how to train effectively and without temper takes a lot of maturity as a trainer. It takes someone that uses their head and not their impulses and temper.
Just because she didn't injure the horse doesn't mean its not abuse. He started to flinch when I would go to pet him after that. So just because it doesn't leave physical scars doesn't mean there won't be emotional scars.
     
    12-17-2011, 07:58 PM
  #16
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasBlaze    
That doesnt truely sound like abuse to me. Abuse in its true form is usually something that is obvious to everyone. Even a child would see something needs to be done. I myself will kick my horses in the pasture. I act like a mare. If theyre crowding my colt and tring to take his food ill shake my head and snort and strike out on them in the shoulders and stomaches if I can reach. A horse is much stronger than a human. A kick that could put me in the hospital by another horse would be be a strong reprimand for my horses. Theyre touch and unless its in the very soft part of the belly with a steel toed boot and a sledge hammer I doubt itll be hard enough to hurt the horse. For the hoofpick, if she didnt break the skin then no I don't think id consider it abuse either. Horses have tough skin and it can be dangerous if one doesnt respect you enough to move your butt over. Im pretty sure another horse could kick him harder than she could stab him with a hoofpick, UNLESS it was into the skin with the metal end. And I doubt youd be asking if it were abuse if she did that. Youd know.
Oh I know it was abuse. Without a doubt. I started this thread to see if others felt the same way.
     
    12-17-2011, 08:00 PM
  #17
Yearling
Does that mean if a horse flinches after he's lunged with a whip that he was abused? No. He just wasnt desensitized with it afterwards. I still would not consider it abuse. I would call her an immature trainer, but not abusive.
     
    12-17-2011, 08:05 PM
  #18
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwigirl    
Maybe its about perspective, when she "stabbed" the horse in the butt how far did the hoof pick sink into the flesh - 1 inch? 2 inches? Or did it not actually break the skin at all? Did the resulting wound require treatment, stitches perhaps?

As for kicking the horse in the side, did the trainer break her toes on the horses ribs or was she wearing steel caps? You got to be real careful when making accusations about abuse. My horse is an incredible food hog, she is a big strong girl and when I am on the ground once she gets her head down to eat I can't budge her. I started growling at her, tugging on the reins or lead line which she ignores. I then started stamping the ground beside her mouth which worked once. Then I started prodding her in the chops with my toe which also worked briefly before she decided to ignore that too. Now as soon as her head goes down to eat I give her a good kick in the gob -it hurts my toes in my soft riding boots. No doubt if you saw me kick my horse in the mouth you would call me abusive. I however think its preferable, rather than standing like a dumb ass holding a lawn mower.

It's all about perspective, if you don't understand why something is happening then at least have the courtesy to ask the trainer why she does what she does before labeling her as abusive.
She explained to me why she was doing everything she did, so there was no need to ask her. I just don't think that physically hitting your horse is okay. There are other ways of dealing with things. It sounds to me like you horse doesn't respect you. You need to gain respect with her, then you wouldn't have to kick the poor thing in the mouth.
     
    12-17-2011, 08:09 PM
  #19
Banned
Kicking a horse in the mouth/face is abusive! Those bones down there are very delicate and sensitive, and it sure wouldn't take much to dislodge a tooth or fracture a jaw or nasal bone. Kiwigirl, you really need to rethink your priorities.

That said, Kayla, hitting your horse is not necessarily abuse by any stretch of the imagination and I guarantee you that Buck whacks his horses when warranted. I even saw him do it in the film, if I recall.
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    12-17-2011, 08:09 PM
  #20
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by KaylaMarie96    
Just because she didn't injure the horse doesn't mean its not abuse. He started to flinch when I would go to pet him after that. So just because it doesn't leave physical scars doesn't mean there won't be emotional scars.
But that would assume that horses have emotions like we do, sure horses can get headshy, or twitchy etc, but a poke with a hoof pick to get him to move over when another horse is trying to get past. Well what if the horse coming past had bitten or kicked him, would that emotionally scar him, no it would teach him to get his butt out of the way.
     

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