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Abuse or Training?

This is a discussion on Abuse or Training? within the Horse Talk forums, part of the Keeping and Caring for Horses category

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        12-17-2011, 08:13 PM
      #21
    Super Moderator
    You asked for opinions and you got them.

    I think you started this thread to get other people to agree with you and did not consider that their bar for calling abuse could be in a much different place.

    I don't believe he has 'emotional scars'. I doubt he is that neurotic and overly sensitive. She just missed a step. [Like I said, she has a lot to learn -- but she's trying.]

    The generally accepted method to create sensitivity and movement is to use a stick or a whip. If one has to use something like that (or a hoof pick if that is what you have in your hand.) to get a horse to listen and move quickly, then you use it, get the desired response and then you go back and rub the area or make harmless motions to that area so the horse gets the difference between getting hit or poked because he ignored a handler and getting too jumpy and goosey. You sensitize the horse with the whip, stick or whatever and then you go back and desensitize it and put it all back in perspective for the horse.

    They need to learn to 'move and move now' when asked. (I use a "Smooch!") And they need to learn to stand when told "Whoa!"
         
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        12-17-2011, 08:16 PM
      #22
    Showing
    Kicking my horse in the side? I'd be outta there like yesterday. The hoof pick....well, that's all perspective. I've used the dandy brush side many times to remind a horse to respect my space and yield the haunches when I ask for it. Stabbing is intolerable and abusive, but are you sure it was a cruel stab and not just a poke?
         
        12-17-2011, 08:19 PM
      #23
    Showing
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by KaylaMarie96    
    Just because she didn't injure the horse doesn't mean its not abuse. He started to flinch when I would go to pet him after that. So just because it doesn't leave physical scars doesn't mean there won't be emotional scars.
    Very true.. it was a very over corrected angry response. If a horse flinches that doesn't usually flunch, he's worried that he's doing something wrong.. he doesn't know WHAT, but he's worried about being hurt. At least that is what I have seen in my experience. Instead of abuse, I'd call it bullying.. and it needs to stop. It's not productive at all.. I'm glad you're moving out of that barn.

    A horse can also flinch if he's not sure if it's a good thing he did or a bad thing. Being flight animals, they typically choose to flinch rather than stand and wait for the response from the trainer.

    At the same time, if he was in her space and not being respectful, then she probably just used what she had to get him to move over NOW. If it's a one time thing, then it's fine. If it happens over and over again.. she's being an ineffective trainer which does nothing for the horse OR the students. I've used the hoofpick in my horse's tummy for slamming his foot down on the farrier. He doesn't do that anymore, but neither have I.

    I've seen a few ladies kick their horses in the belly.. I would never do that. I rather send the horse away and "work" or back up or leg yield in a circle. But just because I don't do it, doesn't mean it's abuse.. it is a very immature response if the horse didn't do anything dangerous. If he did something terrible like charge at you or rear, then it could be well deserved. Horses out in pasture do worse.

    I wouldn't jump to conclusions though.. and watch that you don't praise a horse that is being rude. It's very easy to feel sorry over nothing and then you end up praising the horse for being bad, which makes them act out worse.. etc.
         
        12-17-2011, 08:28 PM
      #24
    Foal
    After reading more of what you said I was wrong in what I had said.I agree with the others on how its not really abuse..Doesn't help I'm doing three things at once and didn't completely read the OP and clearly think out my response.My apologies... I personally however do not care for someone being rough with my horse if its not a situation that really calls for it(for ex: my horse trying to run over top of someone or bite etc.). So I would have been not too thrilled about her kicking my horse in the side..but I wouldn't call that abuse. Using the example that Golden Horse mentioned: It would have hurt him a lot worse I think if a horse walking by would have bitten or kicked him than him getting poked by the hoof pick since it didn't go through the skin and draw blood. I'm assuming he must not of moved over when asked the first time or maybe the second time when asked so the trainer just reinforced the command by giving him a poke to move him over...
         
        12-17-2011, 08:49 PM
      #25
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Cherie    
    You asked for opinions and you got them.

    I think you started this thread to get other people to agree with you and did not consider that their bar for calling abuse could be in a much different place.

    I don't believe he has 'emotional scars'. I doubt he is that neurotic and overly sensitive. She just missed a step. [Like I said, she has a lot to learn -- but she's trying.]

    The generally accepted method to create sensitivity and movement is to use a stick or a whip. If one has to use something like that (or a hoof pick if that is what you have in your hand.) to get a horse to listen and move quickly, then you use it, get the desired response and then you go back and rub the area or make harmless motions to that area so the horse gets the difference between getting hit or poked because he ignored a handler and getting too jumpy and goosey. You sensitize the horse with the whip, stick or whatever and then you go back and desensitize it and put it all back in perspective for the horse.

    They need to learn to 'move and move now' when asked. (I use a "Smooch!") And they need to learn to stand when told "Whoa!"
    I didn't expect people to agree with me. I knew that there would be people that wouldn't. I never said my horse has emotional scars. He is perfectly happy now that my old trainer isn't training him. I was simply stating that you don't have to physically hurt a horse to hurt them.
         
        12-17-2011, 08:54 PM
      #26
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by cowgirlup24    
    After reading more of what you said I was wrong in what I had said.I agree with the others on how its not really abuse..Doesn't help I'm doing three things at once and didn't completely read the OP and clearly think out my response.My apologies... I personally however do not care for someone being rough with my horse if its not a situation that really calls for it(for ex: my horse trying to run over top of someone or bite etc.). So I would have been not too thrilled about her kicking my horse in the side..but I wouldn't call that abuse. Using the example that Golden Horse mentioned: It would have hurt him a lot worse I think if a horse walking by would have bitten or kicked him than him getting poked by the hoof pick since it didn't go through the skin and draw blood. I'm assuming he must not of moved over when asked the first time or maybe the second time when asked so the trainer just reinforced the command by giving him a poke to move him over...
    The part that really made me mad though was that my horse wasn't doing anything to harm someone or put someone in danger. It also wasn't just a poke. She pressed the metal part of the hoof pick into the side of my horse's butt for a good 10 seconds, just because he wouldn't move over fast enough. He trying to rear and was dancing around with a terrified look in his eyes. I guess I should have also added in my description that my horse hadn't been worked with very much for about a year.
         
        12-17-2011, 08:58 PM
      #27
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bubba13    
    Kicking a horse in the mouth/face is abusive! Those bones down there are very delicate and sensitive, and it sure wouldn't take much to dislodge a tooth or fracture a jaw or nasal bone. Kiwigirl, you really need to rethink your priorities.

    That said, Kayla, hitting your horse is not necessarily abuse by any stretch of the imagination and I guarantee you that Buck whacks his horses when warranted. I even saw him do it in the film, if I recall.
    I'm glad someone agrees with me about kicking your horse in the face. And I've seen Buck wack a horse with a flag...but never kick or hit a horse with his hand...although if he has done those things, I would hope its because he was in danger and that was his last resort.
         
        12-17-2011, 09:02 PM
      #28
    Super Moderator
    I dont' think kicking is a good method, unless it's in desperation and out of self defence, like a knee jerk action to get the hrose to move away from you. But for regular training, it is not productive.
    When I was a kid I was taught to kick the horse in the gut to make him stop bloating so I could tighten the cinch. Now, I know one does not need to do that.

    As for pushing a hoof pick into his buttock . . .if I had asked with my hand and he ignored me, I might push the pick inot the butt, just enought to get his attention. It won't scar him.
         
        12-17-2011, 09:05 PM
      #29
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bubba13    
    Kicking a horse in the mouth/face is abusive! Those bones down there are very delicate and sensitive, and it sure wouldn't take much to dislodge a tooth or fracture a jaw or nasal bone. Kiwigirl, you really need to rethink your priorities.

    That said, Kayla, hitting your horse is not necessarily abuse by any stretch of the imagination and I guarantee you that Buck whacks his horses when warranted. I even saw him do it in the film, if I recall.

    Sorry, my bad. The reason I made it sound like its something I do on a continuous and regular basis was for the sake of dramatic license.

    Phoenny has received two kicks to the mouth, for better or worse they were the extreme measure I had to resort too to get her head up. That was a couple of years ago, nowadays she very rarely tries to eat, unless I am, say, talking to someone and she knows she can take advantage while I am distracted. In that case I can growl or say "UH" sharply and she lifts her head, at the most extreme I can stamp my foot beside her and she knows what it means.

    That doesn't change the fact that if someone had seen me deliver one of those two kicks to her the assumption would be that I am abusive, when really they were the last resort for a very frustrating problem.

    KaylaMarie96, I agree totally that at that stage it was about respect, she didn't respect me until she received a short sharp reminder that I wont tolerate some behaviour. Now I don't need to enforce my dominance, she accepts it as the normal state of being.
    KaylaMarie96 likes this.
         
        12-17-2011, 09:16 PM
      #30
    Trained
    On that Buck movie, the documentary was fine, but I'd be careful with the whole natural horsemanship thing. I thought the "Abuse" and "harshness" he talked about in that movie was overly dramatized, showing only the worst of the worst in horsemen and making it seem like he was the holy gift from god. There were some things I really liked there, others just sounded like he was smoking the Nevzerov stuff.

    I apologize since I didn't read the whole thread, but I would certain jab my horse with a hoof pick if they were being pushy about it. Especially if it was dangerous. I've had a horse in a little slant load trailer slam his butt right into me, could have crushed me against the wall and broke some ribs. A hard kick in the gut made him think twice about EVER pushing on me again. Never had to do it again either;

    As for the kicking while mounting, I would imagine she was thinking the "He wants to move, make him move" clause. I've seen many trainers use this, though normally they slap the horse with their hand and not their foot.
         

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