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Abuse or Training?

This is a discussion on Abuse or Training? within the Horse Talk forums, part of the Keeping and Caring for Horses category

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        12-18-2011, 11:32 AM
      #41
    Trained
    For me the bottom line is, it's my horse, I'm paying the bills and I don't like it. It doesn't matter if anyone ELSE considers it abuse, I DO. That's all the reason a trainer should need because they like earning my money. The first time I saw such a thing, belly kicking the horse, I'd tell them not to ever do it again or I'd pull my horse. If I saw it again, the horse is outta there, right now. Never mind 30 days notice, I told you 6 months ago not to ever boot my horse in the belly again or we'd leave, THAT is your 30 days + notice and be **** glad I gave you a second chance. You won't be getting a third and I'd load up my horse and we'd leave.

    What too many people have forgotten is, the TRAINER is an EMPLOYEE and you are the BOSS. If the emplyee does something the boss doesn't like, the employee gets fired. No notice, no nothing. Giving a 30 day notice before you move your horse is a courtesy practiced in the industry for someone who is moving their horse and is otherwise happy with the service they've received. Yanking your horse out of training is firing the trainer and thus no notice is given. And I'd tell the trainer all that in no uncertain terms and tell them to take me to court and see how a judge feels.
    Tianimalz likes this.
         
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        12-18-2011, 11:47 AM
      #42
    Yearling
    Was it actually 'stabbing' with a hoof pick? Cause when my horse is being space-invading or absolutely wont move, I use a hoof pick too because it helps.. But I definitely don't stab, and I've seen other people do it too.
         
        12-18-2011, 11:55 AM
      #43
    Yearling
    I think these abuse allegations have gotten way out of control. Everywhere on this site, there's finger pointing going on. English riders are accusing western riders of abuse, western riders are pointing at other western riders, and horse show people are blaming rodeo folks for cruelty. If we don't see what we're doing, the results are going to be disastrous.

    Ever since Walt Disney made horses talk, there's been wacky activists. These animal rights groups love to see us turn on each other. Every time a horse person shows a pic or video or makes a post of something questionable, it gives the activists more ammo. There are plenty of them who'd love to eliminate rodeo and horse shows. They're trying hard to stop carriage rides in the city because they see it as slavery to the horses. Don't give them more ammo. These people live in the city and will never understand the love we have for animals.

    The trend is to play the blame game. When barrel racer is accused of being too rough, they point at calf roping or steer roping to turn the attention somewhere else. If we're not careful, these extreme activists will outlaw all horse riding. If you think I'm exaggerrating, do some research. You'll be shocked
         
        12-18-2011, 12:21 PM
      #44
    Super Moderator
    AC -- you are soooo right.

    That is why I do not call anything 'abuse' unless it causes injury or can very likely cause injury. [ I have stopped or tried to stop abuse in progress and actually bought one horse to stop the owner from abusing it.]

    I may call it stupid or inappropriate and it is probably ineffective but true abuse should cause someone unrelated to the horse or the person to intervene and stop it -- you know -- like the current 'sex abuse' scandal at Penn State. Anyone seeing it should be expected to stop it. That is true abuse.

    Then, as for training for someone else. That work two ways. Owners who don't know how to do it should maybe step back and let a trainer have a little latitude until they see that the methods are not working. There are probably more trainers that send horses home because meddling owners try to micro-manage every little thing they do with a horse as there are owners that jerk a horse away from a trainer. I know I have sent (or tried to send) several horses home for just that reason.

    The much better route would be to have a sit-down mature discussion when neither person is 'mad' or 'reactive' and discuss what is appropriate and what is beyond the limit of 'good training'. That conversation would probably help both individuals in this instance. Just like you cannot teach a reactive horse anything, a reactive person is not reasonable or productive.
    AmazinCaucasian likes this.
         
        12-18-2011, 12:35 PM
      #45
    Trained
    "A. A person commits cruelty to animals if the person does any of the following:

    1. Intentionally, knowingly or recklessly subjects any animal under the person's custody or control to cruel neglect or abandonment.

    2. Intentionally, knowingly or recklessly fails to provide medical attention necessary to prevent protracted suffering to any animal under the person's custody or control.

    3. Intentionally, knowingly or recklessly inflicts unnecessary physical injury to any animal.

    4. Recklessly subjects any animal to cruel mistreatment.

    5. Intentionally, knowingly or recklessly kills any animal under the custody or control of another person without either legal privilege or consent of the owner...

    7. Intentionally, knowingly or recklessly leaves an animal unattended and confined in a motor vehicle and physical injury to or death of the animal is likely to result.

    8. Intentionally or knowingly subjects any animal under the person's custody or control to cruel neglect or abandonment that results in serious physical injury to the animal.

    9. Intentionally or knowingly subjects any animal to cruel mistreatment...

    H. For the purposes of this section:

    1. "Animal" means a mammal, bird, reptile or amphibian.

    2. "Cruel mistreatment" means to torture or otherwise inflict unnecessary serious physical injury upon an animal or to kill an animal in a manner that causes protracted suffering to the animal.

    3. "Cruel neglect" means to fail to provide an animal with necessary food, water or shelter."

    Format Document

    When I first got Mia, I kicked her once. I was wearing sneakers. She didn't notice. I limped for a week, while my family laughed at me.
         
        12-18-2011, 01:15 PM
      #46
    Started
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by KaylaMarie96    
    The part that really made me mad though was that my horse wasn't doing anything to harm someone or put someone in danger. It also wasn't just a poke. She pressed the metal part of the hoof pick into the side of my horse's butt for a good 10 seconds, just because he wouldn't move over fast enough. He trying to rear and was dancing around with a terrified look in his eyes. I guess I should have also added in my description that my horse hadn't been worked with very much for about a year.
    Perhaps you could clear this up a bit for me?

    He hadn't been worked with for about a year, was put in cross ties for the first time, was scared but not endangering anyone. Right?

    And was he dancing around and trying to rear BEFORE or AFTER the trainer applied continuous pressure using the metal end of the hoof pick?

    There is an effective training method to use pressure until you get the desired result. The release is the reward. Get a horse to yield by using pressure, stop a horse by using pressure, back a horse using pressure, ect.

    Did you think that your horse was flinching from your touch because he was still scared? Hadn't been worked for almost a year, suddenly he is put into a new situation, and is terrified. It takes a bit to settle a scared, terrified horse down and may still have been in a strong flight mode when you were patting him.

    I worked a horse years ago that had been both mentally and physically abused by a whip. Who did it, I will never know, she had changed owners countless times before. If she saw a whip, she freaked out and went bonkers, she also had thin, straight scars across her rump. Whoever had beat her had to have been on the ground when they did it. THAT is cruel and abusive!

    What your trainer did may not have been what you would have wanted. But at the same time, what would you have done in the same situations? Yank on the reins (harsh on their mouth) to stop them from walking off while mounting? Perhaps if you were really patient, you could continually step into and out of the stirrup until the horse stops walking forward. There are other methods too, but they take lots of patience and the trainer may have been looking for the quickest result.

    The exact situation leading up to the trainer using a hoof pick, I am not quite understanding. There seems to have been a lot of things going on. What part of the metal end of the hoof pick did she use? Most hoof picks I am familiar with are rounded like a giant fish hook. So if it was pushed straight into a horse's rump there is no point of any kind, and is blunt but hard.
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        12-18-2011, 10:55 PM
      #47
    Foal
    Yes she put him in the cross ties and he was scared. He wouldn't move his butt so she stabbed, poked, whatever with the pointy end of the metal hoof pick. He started rearing after she got him with the hoof pick. I hope that clears it up a bit.
         
        12-18-2011, 11:32 PM
      #48
    Started
    Yes it does clear it up quite well. I am glad you are getting out of there. Sounds like she didn't apply pressure, but actually smacked him with him with force. Although it didn't cause long term damage, actions like that will only escalate to something much worse. You made a wise choice to take your business else where :)
    Posted via Mobile Device
    KaylaMarie96 likes this.
         

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