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Adopting Vs. Buying

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        12-16-2012, 11:30 PM
      #101
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Celeste    
    So nobody should ever breed dogs, cats, or horses? Hmmm. That won't leave us many in a few years. If a mare (or a dog or cat for that matter) is a papered, high quality animal, it may be more likely to find a home if it can be bred. People neglect horses for various reasons. It is true that a lot of horses out there should not be bred, but some really good animals can be found in odd places.

    Do you think that all breeding should cease and only irresponsible people breed "mutts"? Stop all intentional breeding? That is a pretty shallow view.
    As stated above sorry for being unclear but I was not meaning each and every animal should not be bred, just most (like 97%) in RESCUE situations. The good breeder is rare in a rescue. And please explain how its a shallow view? That's what I don't get. Wouldnt it be shallow if I said we should only breed $10,000 show horses and there is no such thing as a good grade horse or only one breed should ever be bred? Because I disagree with all of those things. Its not shallow to think it unfair to breed an animal just because I can or want to, there are too many bad breeders out there, that I've seen firsthand. A responsible breeder is one thing and I explained that above. Its funny how I always see people on here criticizing people for breeding their own horses but I'm getting flack for what? Just an ironic thought that popped in my head...
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        12-16-2012, 11:34 PM
      #102
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Celeste    
    How does Oregon enforce this don't breed the seized mares law? In Georgia, we spay and neuter all dogs and cats that are adopted at pounds. Spaying horses would be cost prohibitive.

    I agree that most horses that end up at rescues should not be bred. If there is a really valuable mare, it would be stupid to prevent it.
    Honestly I doubt they enforce it but being a 501(c)3 we still have to obey the laws or we could be shut down.

    I also stated in an above post that in certain cases such as an exceptional broodmare that we would make exceptions to the breeding clause.
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        12-16-2012, 11:34 PM
      #103
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by countrylove    
    I do agree with this and I didn't express what I meant clearly (Never good at being very understandable and I warn people on here all the time lol) but how do we weed out the good breeders from the bad? Unfortunately it is too risky for a rescue and not to mention any horse we receive from a seizure can not be bred by Oregon state law, so we are bound by that too. Also to throw in the fact that rescued horses are usually unpapered or their papers were lost and we simply do not have funds to sign up to every registry and order papers every time a horse comes in. We are concerned about their health and training. If the adopter wants to order the papers by all means they can. As said above, breeders want papers. There are to many variables to deal with breeders. We have to be very careful or our doors could be shut down and then what use are we? There is a method behind the madness, believe it or not...
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    I see the restrictions through law. But as Celeste stated, if the breeder who is interested in a particular papered mare, I don't think withholding her papers, as many rescues do, will do anybody any good.
    I am on an Arabian forum and see this scenario at least once a week there. People don't take the horse and prefer to do their own rescues. That happens a lot on there and amazes me over and over again, to see what these folks on there are capable of. Within hours of posting a horse in need there is transport to a Foster home ans usually within a couple of days a home is found and people pitch in for the transport cost. Those people are breeders btw......
         
        12-16-2012, 11:38 PM
      #104
    Trained
    I would think that most of the rescue horses are not good breeders. Most of the ones that I have seen advertised are 20 year old, untrained, lame, swayback stallions. Obviously we would be in agreement that they should not be bred.

    I am glad to see that you are not so adamantly opposed to breeding all horses that you would allow an irreplaceable bloodline die out just to make a statement.
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        12-16-2012, 11:42 PM
      #105
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by deserthorsewoman    
    Wayne Pacelle, president of the HSUS:
    We have no ethical obligation to preserve the different breeds of livestock produced through selective breeding.........one generation and out. We have no problem with the extinction of domestic animals. They are creations of human selective breeding.
    Animal People News may 1993

    Countrylove, I appreciate what your rescue does, it is a lot more and better than a lot of others do, but that quote above is just plain SCARY, and demanding sterilization of all animals will lead to what is quoted above.
    Thank you! And I do agree, very scary. I'm not saying we should stop all breeding. I'm just saying it isn't practical for us or the horses we rehome. We have pregnant mares now and no where for them or the foals they came with and the ones they will drop this coming spring because of an irresponsible breeder who bred them back to back and they now require a ton of vet care due to being bred like this most of their lives. They are 11-16 yrs (there are 3) and they have arthritis so bad one can barely walk and is on the PTS list. In my area there are a lot of shady breeders which is why we added the breeding clause. If we knew any reputable breeders who wanted to adopt for breeding then that would be a completely different story. Unfortunately people don't think responsibly when it comes to breeding.
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    Eta: we don't withhold the papers, its the owners responsibility to request them directly from the registry
         
        12-16-2012, 11:42 PM
      #106
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by deserthorsewoman    
    I see the restrictions through law. But as Celeste stated, if the breeder who is interested in a particular papered mare, I don't think withholding her papers, as many rescues do, will do anybody any good.b.
    Right. All it will do is take away her chance at a good life. She can't be shown in breed shows. She is no more than a grade horse. And she may be worth $500 rather than $5,000. That is not rescue. That is ruining her life.
         
        12-16-2012, 11:48 PM
      #107
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Celeste    
    I would think that most of the rescue horses are not good breeders. Most of the ones that I have seen advertised are 20 year old, untrained, lame, swayback stallions. Obviously we would be in agreement that they should not be bred.

    I am glad to see that you are not so adamantly opposed to breeding all horses that you would allow an irreplaceable bloodline die out just to make a statement.
    I'm strongly opinionated lol but I'm not an extremist and I'm very open minded and willing to listen :)

    Also not a PETA fan or HSUS but the Oregon state rep for HSUS was pretty nice and has helped us when we first got started.

    I'm a cattle rancher so I understand how frustrating these organizations can be to the responsible person.
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        12-17-2012, 12:04 AM
      #108
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by countrylove    
    Well first off it is people like you who treat these animals as tools and then leave them for who knows what to happen. They are not dogs but do they deserve less? Would your dog do half the things your horse does? You'll keep a dog for 15 yrs but not a horse for 5 more? I don't get what makes the dog better than a horse or why the horse doesn't deserve a forever home... seems hypocritical to me...

    First do not pretend to know me. I breed quality horses. I do not dump my broodmares when they get old. My last broodmare I retired lived out her life here until I had her put down at almost 32 years old. So do not say they are tools. What they are is quality animals that are very well treated. However there are times that I no longer need that particulare horse and I know there is a person out there that might have a good use for it. That is what breeders do. Dogs not the same. I have them some to show some to just be dogs.

    Second how do we know you improved the horse? We send our horses out fully trained with free training for the entire time you own the horse.
    I have yet to see a rescue horse that has ever been really well trained. Most rescue horses are such b/c the lack of training. If you really put $30K into really training a horse good for you. However that is not the norm.

    More often than not the horse comes back ruined not improved, ruined.
    From what I have seen come through rescues or need to be pulled there is little to ruin. Most are not even ridable. The few that are are not what I would consider well trained. Horses here are all very well trained. Any horses I get or breed are trained and proven. If I take in a project horse they would go out as a well started if not finished reiner. That horse would end up going to a young reiner who may not be able to afford a high $$ finished reiner or a green reiner just starting out. This is why I do not take horses from rescues. I put all that time effort and money into a horse to train it. I want it to go to a person who will use it up to its potential. If I trained a horse to be a reiner and then sent it back to the rescue when I was done. Chances are the average person would have a hard time riding it.


    Besides how can you raise the value when we don't SELL horses. We rehome them meaning a $8000-$10,000 papered bombproof show horse can be rehomed for a whopping $300.
    If a horse was truely a bombproof show horse sutable for kids and even some what sound there is a waiting list for those type of horse even now. I see it all the time around here. Good bombproof horses go from one young kid to anouther all the time. Each kid loves that horse just as much as the last and the horse is happy teaching these kids how to ride. I have yet to see one come out of a rescue. The very very few that do require so much to keep them sound it is not fair to the new owner or the horse.

    Sounds to me like the adopter gets the deal not the rescue. Besides the fact we include free training for life and NO we do not require you to use it or require you to train a certain way like someone else said. Its just available to up the chances of a horse staying in a home that may not have the skills to solve a problem that may and usually will arise.

    What is the quality of this "training" every rescue I have seen and been around with horses there is no real training. The trainers I use are very well proven trainers. They are not want a bes who hang a shingle.

    And third: we do not go trespassing on people's property. We will call you, set up a time and day and come out at your convenience. We do have common sense and manners besides the fact its illegal to trespass and the last thing we want to do is cause a liability issue for you because that just means the horse could end up back in a rescue situation. Not to mention we work with horses 24/7 and most of us have dogs, we know better than to go messing around with shut gates because of loose animals. Not everyone is an idiot or rude enough to randomly drop by and trespass while your gone. We are a legitimate organization. You must be dealing with some pretty shady places if this is such a problem.

    Ever single large animal rescue I have ever seen have been a poor excuess. Again I will never get a horse from a rescue b/c of all the strings.

    To the general "I Hate Rescues" people:
    You act like we are concerned about you and your personal life or we are out to "get" you. All we care about is the horse. Our regulations aren't to invade your privacy or harass you, in fact its the opposite, we are here to help. All these defensive people sound paranoid to me. What are you hiding? If your a good horse owner what's the big deal? Only adopters with bad intentions ever have an issue with our requirements... just saying...

    Again I will not take in a project horse and to be honest that is what 99% of rescues are. Project horses and then have to keep them for the rest of their lives. On that same note I will not take in a project horse get then trained going well as a reiner and that is what I do reining and then send them back to a rescue to be re homed to a person who probably will never be able to really ride that horse properly. When I can go and find a well bred prospect spend a bit more or better yet breed one and have no strings attached that that horse. It is not about hiding anything. It is about taking a horse giving it value and getting it into the hands of someone who can use that horse properly.

    Sounds like some people have nothing better to do than bash on good intentions and good people. I'm out of this convo. I've heard the argument and now its just being repeated. I also said Id show this to my board and we would discuss your concerns. Our rescue is nothing like you guys are describing but for the sake of improving the industry as a whole I would like to work on improving our regulations. So let's end on a good note and agree to disagree :)

    Happy Holidays Everyone!
    Posted via Mobile Device
    At the end of the day each horse and owner is different. While I will agree that a lot of people who addopte animals just want an horse or dog or cat and have no real plans for that animal past that. However those are the type that rearly keep doing things with horse. Owners who will truely take a horse and put a lot of work into the horse and make the horse something that will be useful for a long time.
    BBBCrone likes this.
         
        12-17-2012, 12:20 AM
      #109
    Banned
    I do believe, and this is my very own honest opinion, that anyone who has had a load of good and bad experiences with horses and a bucket load of experience would steer clear of the 'rescue' option when there are so many horses out there with an honest history and honest training.......

    I could probably deal with a horse with 'issues'.......but I don't have the time nor the inclination to hurt myself in the process....

    This is why I saved my money and got a sound highly trained horse that will 'hopefully' give me many years of riding.......you get what you pay for......

    I haven't had much experience with 'rescues' but when I buy a horse....it's mine to do with as I please........
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        12-17-2012, 01:01 PM
      #110
    Trained
    I think most rescues need to wake up and taste the toast. This is no longer the 80's when folks were just jumping on the bandwagon and throwing money at a rescue to "save the horses". Over time we've seen the rescues who took in the horses with the roached backs so severe that they could never be ridden, and watched the rescues support them as "unadoptable" for 20+ years, seen them do multiple colic surgeries on a 27 year old horse only to have to euthanize her anyhow, gotten jaded about the "kill pen" horses and watched as rescue after rescue inundated themselves in useless horses.

    We are now to the point, especially economically, that we want to see the money donated put to good, responsible use. Money has become very tight for most everyone and when giving to a rescue I know I want to see ethical, business-like choice made for the animals in their care.

    No longer do I want money that I'm donating to be spent on horses who have no future except to be lawn ornaments at a rescue. Not every horse needs to be saved, the purpose of a rescue should be to take in a horse and evaluate, train and vet it so that it can be rehomed for enough money to bring the next horse along. All the strings, hoarder mentality and control issues, in today's economy, are nothing but off putting to people. You can guilt people into adopting but when they see the unreasonable demands and restrictions....You won't keep them.

    I won't touch a rescue horse and after all of the things I've seen at various rescues, won't donate a dime. I'll go get a horse out of a tough situation but rescues, IMO, have out lived their usefulness. Too many have turned into animal hoarders and that's not helping the animals they're supposed to serve.

    Many strip horses of their papers, routinely, and that to me is completely unethical and inexcusable. Saying that getting the papers is up to the adopter to request them from the registration agency is merely double speak for, "We only deal in grade animals.". NO agency will issue papers without a signed transfer, court order or some other documentation showing a horse has changed hands legally. Once the original papers are gone, many will not help the next owner try to track down or get duplicate papers. Saying a horse has papers available and not giving the original papers to the new owner is nothing but a scam.

    Rescues need to take a long hard look at their practices and understand that if they continue as they are, their funding which is getting scarcer by the day, will dry up completely. They need to look at their business practices, their control issues and they need to understand that for less than most adoption fees, I can buy a horse, train it my way and sell it to the next owner and have absolutely no issues with anyone. They need to understand that these are HORSES not CHILDREN. I married my spouse til death do us part, if I had children that is for life, and while most of the animals who come here are here for life, I can't say that for every one. Some don't work out, times change, people get older, finances fluctuate. To insist on a forever home for an large livestock animal is purely unrealistic and that clause right there is enough to make me walk from a rescue or a potential purchase.

    Rescues need to get realistic.
         

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